为什么没有更多的女性在掌权的地位?- 乔丹·彼得森(Jordan Peterson)

来源:Jordan Peterson - Women in High Paying Jobs
         乔丹·彼得森 - 在高薪工作的女性

There are women who are very good in high school, then they go to college, they're very good in college. They nail their damn grades, they do their studying, they get their A's and they ace their LSATs, so they are smart too. Then they go off to do their articling and they're really really good at it and then they get offered an Associate position and they're really really good at it, and then by the time they're 30 they make Partner and let's say they're in high-pressure, high-paying jobs. Two hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year, three hundred thousand dollars a year, five hundred dollars an hour, okay. What's your life like? You work all the time. Period. 70 hours a week, 75 hours a week, flat out, and you don't get to make any mistakes. And if your client calls you at 3:00 in the morning on Sunday you say I'm really glad to hear you, hear from you, because if you don't there's some hot law firm in New York that will take your client from you at a moment's notice and the client is paying you whatever the firm... 750 dollars an hour of which maybe you get $350 and what they want is an answer about something really complicated right bloody now.
有些女性从高中的时候就非常成功,去了大学也很成功。她们成绩很好,学习用工,学科得A,LSAT也考得很好,证明她们也很聪明。之后他们去给别人提供法律服务,做得也非常好.之后她们去协理职位,做得也非常好,等她们到30岁的时候他们就成为合伙人了。所以说她们在高压力,高薪的工作。一年25万,30万这样,一小时500美金。所以,你的生活会是什么样的呢?你会一直在工作,毋庸置疑。一个星期70个小时,75个小时,非常艰苦,而且你不能做任何失误。而且如果你的客户在周日凌晨3点打电话给你,你会说“我很高兴接到你的电话”。因为如果你不这样的话,某个在纽约的火爆的事务所会在一瞬之间抢走你的客户。客户会给你们公司750美金一小时,你能得到大概350, 用来在打电话的此时此刻闻讯一些非常复杂的问题。

And you can say all you want about the fact that women have a difficult time with that, because it's a male-dominant patriarchy any who... any female lawyer who's hit 30 and is a Partner that has any sense at all, knows that's complete bloody rubbish. It's market-determined right to the core. What happens to the women when they're in their 30s. They all leave the high-end law firms. Why? 'cause who in their right mind would want to live like that? That's the issue, right. Once you make about $60,000 a year for your family, but let's say for you personally, additional income makes zero has zero impact on your quality of life. Zero. So, why work 80 hours a week? Well men will do it, some men. Very few. A handful of hyper-competitive men, who are obsessed with hitting the pinnacle of the given dominance hierarchy they're in, will happily work 80 hours a week and they'll forego everything else: relationships, family, children... way in the second category. And so those men are often very difficult to live with, too, because they're so obsessed with their career. It's hard to have a relationship with them and maybe they don't have much of a relationship with their kids, but they're damn good at what they do. And part of that is, is they're smart and disciplined and they'll work non-stop, all the time. It's like an obsession. And that's the sort of people who run things. Those are the people who run things. Well, they're often also disagreeable too, because you ought to manage people? Really? They're not going to like you. You know, it's not an easy thing to not be liked. And actually if you're an agreeable person, and women are more agreeable than men, it's quite painful to be disliked. But if you're in a managerial or in an executive position the probability that people are going to like you is quite low. Now, if you're a real son of a bitch, then they're going to dislike you more. But it's those positions are very stressful partly because of the interpersonal dynamics, and they're also incredibly, incredibly competitive.


So the women hit that at 30 and they're completely qualified, and the law firms are bloody desperate to keep them. Because it's really hard to find highly qualified people. Especially once you put all that time into training, especially if they're also good at bringing in business. The law firms trip over themselves to try to keep them They can't. The women think: "Why in the world am I doing this?" "Why in the world would anyone in their right mind do this?" Especially because they're often married by that point too, and generally they've married a husband who makes as much money or more than them, so they don't need the damn money. And so they think: "Well there's more to life than this." which is exactly the right thing to think. And so then they go and find a job that's 9:00 to 5:00 and controllable. So that they can hire a nanny and have some kids and have a life, and it's like "Yes, that's the intelligent thing to do." So, we've got things backwards in our culture. We're thinking, at least in part, why aren't there more women in positions of power? Wrong question. the right question is: why are there any men at all who want those positions of power? Because it's not just positions of power. You have to be such a nut-head to think that 'Oh, it's a position of power!" It's like, sure, but it's a position of overwhelming responsibility. And if you make mistakes. You're done. Right? It's not like you occupy that position of power and everyone does what they're told all the time and your life is easy. It's like, forget about that. People are on your case to do exactly the right thing all the time. 100% of the time. And maybe you want that, maybe you don't. So, what I don't know what... people think, it's these people are all sitting in their offices with their, like, feet up on the desk smoking cigars and oppressing the world. It's like that isn't how it works. Those people they work flat out, all the time.
当这些女性到了30岁,他们也完全够资格,事务所们都绝望地想留住他们。因为寻找非常够资格的人才是很难得。尤其是用那么多的时间对她们进行了训练,尤其是如果她们很擅长带来生意。事务所们非常焦虑地想要把她们留住却不能成功。这些女性们在想“为什么我在做这个?”“为什么任何有脑子的人会做这个”。尤其是到这个岁数她们大多数也结婚了,而且通常他们的丈夫会跟她们挣差不多的钱或者更多,所以她们不需要那些钱(*注2)。所以她们会想:“生命中还有其他的意义。”,这是完全正确的想法。所以她们会去找一个从早9点到晚5点的工作,能控制的工作。能让她们雇一个保姆,有几个孩子,也享受一下生活。这才是聪明的活法啊。所以,我们的文化里把问题搞反了。我们在想,一部分上来说,为什么没有更多的女性在掌权的地位?这个问题就是错的。正确的问题是:为什么会有任何男性想要这些掌权的地位?因为这不单单是个掌权的地位。你得是多愚昧才会想:“哦,这是个掌权的地位。”。就像是,没错,但这也是个有着能把人压倒的责任的地位。如果你犯了任何失误,你就完了,识得唔识得呀? 现实不是如果你有了掌权的地位所有人就会做按照你说的然后你就很轻松。把这种想法忘了吧。人们都在指望你时时刻刻都做出正确的指示,100%的时候。或许你喜欢这种感觉,或许你不喜欢。所以,我不知道,人们为什么这么想,好像这些人就是坐在他们办公室里的椅子里一边把脚翘在桌子上抽雪茄一边压迫世界。根本不是这么玩的。这些人的工作时时刻刻都非常艰辛。

So, and it's fine if that's what you want, and some people are like that. They're hyper-industrious people, right, from a trade perspective. No matter where you put them. If you put them in a forest with an axe they just wander around chopping down trees non-stop, right. 'cause they're, it's built into them. But if you want to have a balanced life, and you should want that. You know, because the other thing you'll find, this is God's gospel truth. Is that, the older you get if you have any sense, at all, the more important your family is to you. Like the utility of your career, maybe that peaks around 35 or 40, and it starts to decline pretty rapidly after that. And what happens, if you're fortunate, you have someone in your life that you love that you've woven yourself together with, and you have some kids So that you have something to do from the time you're 50 till the time you're 80.

And so, it's a real mistake. It's a barren future without children. Man, I can tell you that. It's a real mistake. And so we do a terrible job of... Say putting that image forward and saying, "well yeah." Now, you know, because women have access to the birth control pill now and can compete in the same domains as men, roughly speaking, there is a real practical problem here. It's partly an economic problem now, because when I was roughly your age it was still possible for a one income family to exist. Well, you know that wages have been flat except in the upper 1%, since 1973. Why? Well, it's easy. What happens when you double the labour force? What happens? You halve the value of labour. So, now we're in a situation where it takes two people to make as much as one did before. So we went from a situation where women's career opportunities were relatively limited, to where they were relatively unlimited and there were two incomes, to where, and so women could work, to a situation where women have to work and they only make half as much as they would have otherwise and now we're going to go into a situation this is the next step whereas women will work because men won't. and that's what's coming now. So we there is an Economist article showing that 50% now of boys in school are having trouble with their basic subjects and you look around you in universities you can see this happening. I've watched it over decades. I would say 90% of the people in my personality class are now women. There won't be a damn man left in university in ten years, except in the STEM fields, And it's a complete bloody catastrophe. And it's a catastrophe for women, because I don't know where the Hell are you going to find someone to to have a... You know, to marry and have a family with, if this keeps happening. So, and you think when you're 19 because you're so clueless when you're 19. You don't know a bloody thing. You think: "Well I'm not really sure I want children anyways." It's like, oh yeah, you tell how well you've been educated. Jesus. Dismal, dismal.

Without fail I got to tell you. Without fail, I've watched women go through their professional careers. Many, many of them. It's a very rare woman who at the age of 30 doesn't consider having a child her primary desire, and the ones that don't consider that generally in my observation there's something that isn't quite right in the way that they're constituted or looking at the world. Sometimes you get women who are truly non-maternal. You know, by temperament. They did.. they have a masculine temper, disagreeable, they're not particularly compassionate, they're not maternal, they're really not that interested in kids. Fair enough, man. But there aren't that many of them and there's plenty who will not admit to themselves, that that's what they most desperately want.

Audience member: Do you think women will be better off if they had kids earlier, focus on their career say in their 30s? *sigh* Who knows, like, it's like... It really is a problem. Now, it's a really tough one. I don't think anybody knows the answer to that because... Yeah. Well... Yeah. Yeah, I can't answer that, because I've seen women do a good job of it both ways. And you did get the odd woman who manages a high-powered career and kids, but Jesus those women, man. like, they buy more powerful microwaves because it'll take 45 seconds to cook the food instead of a minute. And I'm not kidding it's like they're up at five, they exercise for half an hour, they make breakfast, they get their kids ready to work. They go to work, they work 14-hour days flat bloody out, they come home and work for another two hours to get their kids organized. They have a nanny to help them out, then they work for two more hours before they go to bed at like 1:00 and then they're up at 5:00 and they do that again. And I'll tell you you better be tough if you're going to do that, physically too, because you'll just burn yourself to a crisp. I've seen some women manage it, you know. But they're like, they're tough and they're rare. Because that's a hell of a regimen. And then if anything goes wrong, you know. You have a sick kid or something like that. Or there's any sort of crisis in your family. It's just, you know, then it becomes too much. And I don't know the answer to that, you know. I mean, the advantage women have is they live about eight years longer than men. Because testosterone kills men, so... Well, that's right. They pay upfront and gain on the, in the long run. But how... it isn't clear how our society should sort this out. We don't know and it's partly we don't know what to do now that women have control of the reproductive function, it's a big mystery. Yep. 、、

*Audience member starts to speak.. part of is inaudible* "Even if women were to enter the workforce later on, they .... competition with people who are younger "..and that's always a conflict in the workforce that people are always" "hiring younger talent, because..." Yeah. Yes. Well, and the thing is: young stupid people have the advantage of being young. Middle-aged stupid people have the disadvantage of being middle-aged. And so if you're going to hire a young stupid person or a middle-aged stupid person you'll go for the young stupid person. And by stupid I mean, you know. I'm being sarcastic obviously. But I mean, without experience and just getting started in the world. You're much more likely to favor someone young because there's an instant explanation for their relative cluelessness. And it's a problem, you know. So, so I don't know what the answer is, but one answer certainly is, at least in part, is to start letting young women know what being thirty and being female is like, because, and also to disabuse them of the notion that there's something magical about a career. First of all, most people don't have careers, man. They have jobs. And the reason you get paid for a job is because you're being asked to do things you wouldn't do unless you were being paid. And so, it's not some utopia of cigar smoking with your boots up on your desk. That's for sure. Not that would be such a utopia to begin with.

注1. 女性整体上来说比男性更合善
Figure 10 from Weisberg, Yanna & Deyoung, Colin & Hirsh, Jacob. (2011). Gender Differences in Personality across the Ten Aspects of the Big Five. Frontiers in psychology. 2. 178. 10.3389/fpsyg.2011.00178. 

注2. 女性有嫁给比她们阶级更高的男人的倾向(Hypergamy


     Jorden Peterson
分享 2020-06-06

59 个评论


John Watson比他更有影响力啦,难道Watson的行为和理论就都是对的?


John Watson比他更有影响力啦,难道Watson的行为和理论就都是对的?




我不是说了么,这说的是大部分人,不是说所有人。你不要太激动。你仔细看看,这篇文里有不少“ 『真的很少』『一般而言』『基本上』『還是有個例』……”这样的句式,他一直都是这么说的,你可能太激动了没有看到。



Once you make about $60,000 a year for your family, but let's say for you personally, additional income makes zero has zero impact on your quality of life. Zero.
"let's say for you personally"这一句没翻译出来,实际上6万以上,到10万,15万,20万,再往上,生活差别很大
ZetaFC 观察 回复 hells
这是翻译的问题,英文原文是Once you make about $60,000 a year fo...

我不是说了么,这说的是大部分人,不是说所有人。你不要太激动。你仔细看看,这篇文里有不少“ 『真的很少...



你前半段的开炮,Peterson自己的观点就是这样的。他的看法跟你一模一样(我看过他其他的讲座说过)。他之前还把女性比为mother nature,说男性跟生存竞争似得找女人。
hells 回复 ZetaFC 观察


Once you make about $60,000 a year for your family, but let's say for you personally, additional income makes zero has zero impact on your quality of life.
我觉得可以翻译成 “当你的收入达到了6万美金一年的时候,假如对你个人来讲,更多的收入对你生活没有任何的影响。”
let's say是指一个假设,所以后面才说,很多男性即使在收入对生活没有影响的情况下,仍然会更努力工作,赚更多钱。


  1. 全職工作是非常辛苦的。工作場所的競爭是非常激烈的。
  2. 很多職業女性到了30歲以後,沒有家庭、沒有子女,因此感到後悔。
  3. 在西方,大批女性投入工作,壓低了工資。同時大批男性卻因此喪失了拼命去獲取高薪工作的慾望。一方面是工資低,另一方面是約會市場上有很多有穩定收入的女性,不需要他們拼命去追求高薪。


这是翻译的问题,英文原文是Once you make about $60,000 a year fo...



JP  反对集权,反对纳粹。但对斯大林主义态度暧昧。 提出“文化马克思主义”,但自己没说明白啥意思。





ZetaFC 观察 回复 王鸣
JP  反对集权,反对纳粹。但对斯大林主义态度暧昧。 提出“文化马克思主义”,但自己没说明白啥意思。...


What a pleasant surprise to see your post/article ...

王鸣 回复 ZetaFC 观察

最近用药过量,是在俄罗斯,的确不是他自己开的,关键词: jordan peterson benzo russia。成瘾,不是一朝一夕,没有其他医生会冒险主动配合。 benzo是处方药,说他可以给自己开药,是陈述事实。也可能是自己买的,渠道也很多。


他旗帜鲜明地反对集权,不论左右。然而,他的言论本身,试图建构简化的“人生意义”。 常常讲很多话,很煽动,好像很有道理,但没什么干货的感觉。




感谢翻译~ 虽然不是完全赞同乔丹的理论,但不得不说他新颖的观点思路很有启发性。
哈,又是鬼话连篇的Jordan Peterson。。。

(请注意,这是调侃哦~ 有些用户似乎很认真= =)

Women in the workplace

'Is it possible that young women are so outraged because they are craving infant contact in a society that makes that very difficult?'
—Jordan Peterson, infant craver

Peterson thinks the primary desire of professional women is to be mothers by age 30. Peterson has stated that "there is something that isn't quite right" with women who don't make having children their primary desire by age 30 and that women who don't have children are "isolated" and "miserable" in the latter half of their lives.

Given his belief that women should be mothers, it makes sense that Peterson believes that current "gender antipathy" may be due to the birth control pill:

There was no equality for women before the birth control pill. It's completely insane to assume that anything like that could've possibly occurred. And the feminists think they produced a revolution in the 1960s that freed women. What freed women was the pill, and we'll see how that works out. There's some evidence that women on the pill don't like masculine men because of changes in hormonal balance. You can test a woman's preference in men. You can show them pictures of men and change the jaw width, and what you find is that women who aren't on the pill like wide-jawed men when they're ovulating, and they like narrow-jawed men when they're not, and the narrow-jawed men are less aggressive. Well all women on the pill are as if they're not ovulating, so it's possible that a lot of the antipathy that exists right now between women and men exists because of the birth control pill. The idea that women were discriminated against across the course of history is appalling.

It'll be interesting to see what Peterson thinks of women who have PCOS (testosterone and estrogen imbalance) and have to be on the pill.

Of course, Peterson may not see a need for birth control pills because he appears to believe that men and women cannot work together. For example, in an interview with Vice News, Peterson JAQed off about whether it's possible for men and women to work together in the workplace and asserted that women who don't want to be sexually harassed but wear makeup are "hypocritical".
哈,又是鬼话连篇的Jordan Peterson。。。https://rationalwiki.or...




Well,可能不鬼话连篇的都懒得搭理Dr Peterson吧。。。也只能落得去rational wiki找了呢。
Well,可能不鬼话连篇的都懒得搭理Dr Peterson吧。。。也只能落得去rational wi...



还真是挺不幸的呢,Jordan Peterson正式的心理学的课其实是严肃严谨的。


还真是挺不幸的呢,Jordan Peterson正式的心理学的课其实是严肃严谨的。可是偏偏出来讲些五...

哈哈哈哈哈哈,拭目以待吧,看看pathological left还能称霸多久。
哈哈哈哈哈哈,拭目以待吧,看看pathological left还能称霸多久。

啊?您为什么突然就扯上了left or right?

加拿大的right party - conservative昨天选新的领导人第一场辩论的第一个提问环节,故意请了4个人, 3个是女性,都有说自己的工作,1个是LGBTQ,1个是移民,提问的问题是如何团结。
我想这跟Jordan Peterson女人就是想要生小孩的神奇逻辑也可以归在一起吗?恐怕不行吗?

啊?您为什么突然就扯上了left or right?加拿大的right party - conser...

我先说我支持Jordan Peterson, 但是我可以肯定以现在的政治和舆论氛围,他在加拿大一定混的相当不好,他当年在电视上和Cathy Newman那段辩论非常的精彩,Cathy Newman利用各种诡辩,偷换概念,去编造Jordan Peterson没说过的话来攻击他,都没有任何效果,Jordan的观点始终都很简洁直白,就是如果你认可人类社会发展到现在的结果,那你就要接受男女在职场的结果上不平等这一个现实,如果你否认这个结果,那你就是在推翻人类历史发展的正确性,之前人类所建立的社会结构是错误的,因为这个社会结构造成了男女在职场上结果的不平等。


企业管理层大多是男性是市场的选择,是社会的选择,如果你要去改变这个结果,你必须从头开始改变这个社会结构,改变人类的消费习惯 消费心理,虽然这听上去有一点马克思历史决定论的成分,但事实就是如此
我先说我支持Jordan Peterson, 但是我可以肯定以现在的政治和舆论氛围,他在加拿大一定混...

世界run by males (somewhat a fact) = 所以世界就该run by males (the right way to do it because this is how we have been doing it,伟大光荣正确容不得一丝怀疑)


亲,Peterson的世界观某种意义上像是世界run by males (somewhat a fa...

一个empirical fatct是更性别平等的国家男女职业选择差别更大,已经有一堆研究得到这个结果。这已经足够说明社会制度并不是差别的原因,因为如果这个假设是正确的话那么更性别平等的国家男女职业差别应该更小。

Mac Giolla, E., & Kajonius, P. J. (2018). Sex differences in personality are larger in gender equal countries: Replicating and extending a surprising finding. International Journal of Psychology. doi:10.1002/ijop.12529

Schmitt, D. P., Realo, A., Voracek, M., & Allik, J. (2008). Why can’t a man be more like a woman? Sex differences in Big Five personality traits across 55 cultures. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 94(1), 168–182. doi:10.1037/0022-3514.94.1.168
亲,Peterson的世界观某种意义上像是世界run by males (somewhat a fa...


最简单的例子就是Lush,这家的核心是企业文化而非产品,所以公司高层大部分为女性,男性也有高比例的同性恋,这是市场需求决定的,市场对这家公司的需求就是人文情怀的企业文化而并非那所谓纯天然无动物实验的香皂,同理 为什么男性跳芭蕾舞没人看,这是不是对男性的歧视?为什么男性从事幼教 护理等行业会被看不起,生来就更具同理心 同情心的男性在这里是不是遭到性别歧视? Jordan Peterson只是讲出了左派们不敢面对的事实,因为承认这种事实就等于否认自己一直以来的追求,而且我觉得他这种类型的人在目前政治正确当道的加拿大混的不好是很正常的,这就跟民主斗士在中共混的不好是一个道理
亲,Peterson的世界观某种意义上像是世界run by males (somewhat a fa...

以防你听不懂我再多说一点,我认同Jordan Peterson对于性别歧视上的观点不代表我认同他的一切观点,他对于男女在职场上的差异解释的非常简洁明了,企业高层男女比例差异大是一个结果,你要从这个“果”去推导一个单一的“因”是完全错误的,因为你只设定了一个单一变量,如果你观察不同行业,不同角度,就会得到截然不同的结果,比如你以世界500强为样本,得到的结果是企业高层男女比例差距过大,但是你并没有发现世界500强组成的行业是非常有局限性的,银行业,汽车工业,能源企业,保险企业,金融业,电子设备,互联网,这些行业组成了世界500强的半壁江山,毫无疑问男性在这些产业中具有统治地位,但是你没有看到那些没有进入世界500强但女性占据统治地位的行业,护理 服装设计 幼教 美妆 等等,这恰好也就解释为什么往往男性担任高层的公司更具竞争力,因为这是需求导致的,不是什么‘根深蒂固的性别歧视’
What a pleasant surprise to see your post/article ...

I agree with most of what you said above. I've personally read a lot of JP's stuff, in my opinion, one big focus he really wants to convey is the awakening of true individualism. Some of his words were like: I believe that the individual is the locus of salvation and redemption. / The answer to the problem of humanity is the integrity of the individual / You can't have individual Sovereignty without fundamental axioms. These are the very things that 胡适 has emphasized on years ago, and still what every Chinese individual really needs.
嗯。最近用药过量,是在俄罗斯,的确不是他自己开的,关键词: jordan peterson benz...

--- 个人浅见,他所反对的集权,还原主义,却是他自己所认同,并践行的。
What does it mean by '还原主义’? and how has he agreed and implemented on this ?
Can you elaborate on this? I hope you don't come to a ton of conclusions so fast tho, after having just watched a few online speeches of him.
--- 个人浅见,他所反对的集权,还原主义,却是他自己所认同,并践行的。What does it m...

还原主义 Reductionism, meaning simplify complicated phenomena.
I did listen to his podcast and read one of his books. his debate with zizek on youtube...

just saying that you don't need to swallow the whole shit to know if it's shit. Not all his speeches and lectures were useless. like 12 rules of life, some of his ideas can be useful. it's not necessarily what he said was right or wrong,but it was just too simply.

he's ok, and not much to dig into. As a scholar, he can do better than jsut simply telling ppl what's right/wrong, man/woman, like/dislike,,,? if he wants to become another Jesus. ..come on, I rather read the bible myself.

have your own judgment

楼主真的辛苦了 其实翻译细节什么的真的还好 不会对原文原意有多大影响 而且品葱的人 应该大部分都具备一些英语阅读能力吧 更别说其中很多的表达是很口语化的 就比如let's say 既可以说是假设 也可以说是某种程度上的解释 可理解为“这么说吧” 我开始没有看您的翻译 后来低下一堆人讨论翻译的事才过了几眼 表达的很清晰啊......我不太喜欢pederson 但是他很多话讲的真的挺实在的 特别是在女性权利研究和权力研究分布这一块 他也绝对算是当下能绝对拥有话语权的学者之一 感谢贡献!
太同意你的观点了 虽然认同他的一些意见 但是对于整个人的风格真的是吃不消.......看他的演讲 超过3分钟我就得去补两个甄嬛传或者rome的片段来压压惊