为什么没有更多的女性在掌权的地位?- 乔丹·彼得森(Jordan Peterson)

来源:Jordan Peterson - Women in High Paying Jobs
         乔丹·彼得森 - 在高薪工作的女性


There are women who are very good in high school, then they go to college, they're very good in college. They nail their damn grades, they do their studying, they get their A's and they ace their LSATs, so they are smart too. Then they go off to do their articling and they're really really good at it and then they get offered an Associate position and they're really really good at it, and then by the time they're 30 they make Partner and let's say they're in high-pressure, high-paying jobs. Two hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year, three hundred thousand dollars a year, five hundred dollars an hour, okay. What's your life like? You work all the time. Period. 70 hours a week, 75 hours a week, flat out, and you don't get to make any mistakes. And if your client calls you at 3:00 in the morning on Sunday you say I'm really glad to hear you, hear from you, because if you don't there's some hot law firm in New York that will take your client from you at a moment's notice and the client is paying you whatever the firm... 750 dollars an hour of which maybe you get $350 and what they want is an answer about something really complicated right bloody now.
有些女性从高中的时候就非常成功,去了大学也很成功。她们成绩很好,学习用工,学科得A,LSAT也考得很好,证明她们也很聪明。之后他们去给别人提供法律服务,做得也非常好.之后她们去协理职位,做得也非常好,等她们到30岁的时候他们就成为合伙人了。所以说她们在高压力,高薪的工作。一年25万,30万这样,一小时500美金。所以,你的生活会是什么样的呢?你会一直在工作,毋庸置疑。一个星期70个小时,75个小时,非常艰苦,而且你不能做任何失误。而且如果你的客户在周日凌晨3点打电话给你,你会说“我很高兴接到你的电话”。因为如果你不这样的话,某个在纽约的火爆的事务所会在一瞬之间抢走你的客户。客户会给你们公司750美金一小时,你能得到大概350, 用来在打电话的此时此刻闻讯一些非常复杂的问题。

And you can say all you want about the fact that women have a difficult time with that, because it's a male-dominant patriarchy any who... any female lawyer who's hit 30 and is a Partner that has any sense at all, knows that's complete bloody rubbish. It's market-determined right to the core. What happens to the women when they're in their 30s. They all leave the high-end law firms. Why? 'cause who in their right mind would want to live like that? That's the issue, right. Once you make about $60,000 a year for your family, but let's say for you personally, additional income makes zero has zero impact on your quality of life. Zero. So, why work 80 hours a week? Well men will do it, some men. Very few. A handful of hyper-competitive men, who are obsessed with hitting the pinnacle of the given dominance hierarchy they're in, will happily work 80 hours a week and they'll forego everything else: relationships, family, children... way in the second category. And so those men are often very difficult to live with, too, because they're so obsessed with their career. It's hard to have a relationship with them and maybe they don't have much of a relationship with their kids, but they're damn good at what they do. And part of that is, is they're smart and disciplined and they'll work non-stop, all the time. It's like an obsession. And that's the sort of people who run things. Those are the people who run things. Well, they're often also disagreeable too, because you ought to manage people? Really? They're not going to like you. You know, it's not an easy thing to not be liked. And actually if you're an agreeable person, and women are more agreeable than men, it's quite painful to be disliked. But if you're in a managerial or in an executive position the probability that people are going to like you is quite low. Now, if you're a real son of a bitch, then they're going to dislike you more. But it's those positions are very stressful partly because of the interpersonal dynamics, and they're also incredibly, incredibly competitive.
你可以说女性会很难适应,是因为这是个男性主导的父权社会...任何一个到了30岁的女性合伙人,如果她有任何理智的话,会告诉你那是个完完全全的谬论。这所有的都是由市场决定的。当这些女性到了30岁的时候会发生什么?她们都会离职。为什么?因为什么有脑子的人会想过那样的生活?这才是问题。因为当你的收入达到了6万美金一年的时候,假如对你个人的生活来讲,更多的收入对你生活没有任何的影响,零。






所以,为什么要一周工作80个小时呢?男性会去做,有些男性会去,非常少。一小撮极端有竞争性的男性,他们痴迷于到达自己等级制度的顶端。他们会很高兴地一周工作80个小时,而且会放弃所有其它的事情:人际关系,家庭,孩子...都排在第二等分类里。这些男性也非常难以相处,因为他们对事业太痴迷了。很难与他们有很好的关系,他们可能跟孩子关系也不好,但是他们在事业上是真的很能干。有一部分的原因是,他们很聪明,很有纪律,而且会在所有时间里不停地工作,真就像着了魔一样。这就是管理事务的那种人。他们通常也是不合善的,因为他们要管理别人。别人不会喜欢你,不被喜欢也不是件轻松的事。而且如果你是一个合善的人,不被喜欢会令你很伤心(*注1),。但是如果你是在一个管理者或者总裁的地位,人们喜欢你的可能性是非常低的。如果你真是一个混蛋的话,他们会更讨厌你。但是就是这些职位是非常有压力的,部分原因是因为复杂的人际关系,而且这种职位非常,非常有竞争性。


So the women hit that at 30 and they're completely qualified, and the law firms are bloody desperate to keep them. Because it's really hard to find highly qualified people. Especially once you put all that time into training, especially if they're also good at bringing in business. The law firms trip over themselves to try to keep them They can't. The women think: "Why in the world am I doing this?" "Why in the world would anyone in their right mind do this?" Especially because they're often married by that point too, and generally they've married a husband who makes as much money or more than them, so they don't need the damn money. And so they think: "Well there's more to life than this." which is exactly the right thing to think. And so then they go and find a job that's 9:00 to 5:00 and controllable. So that they can hire a nanny and have some kids and have a life, and it's like "Yes, that's the intelligent thing to do." So, we've got things backwards in our culture. We're thinking, at least in part, why aren't there more women in positions of power? Wrong question. the right question is: why are there any men at all who want those positions of power? Because it's not just positions of power. You have to be such a nut-head to think that 'Oh, it's a position of power!" It's like, sure, but it's a position of overwhelming responsibility. And if you make mistakes. You're done. Right? It's not like you occupy that position of power and everyone does what they're told all the time and your life is easy. It's like, forget about that. People are on your case to do exactly the right thing all the time. 100% of the time. And maybe you want that, maybe you don't. So, what I don't know what... people think, it's these people are all sitting in their offices with their, like, feet up on the desk smoking cigars and oppressing the world. It's like that isn't how it works. Those people they work flat out, all the time.
当这些女性到了30岁,他们也完全够资格,事务所们都绝望地想留住他们。因为寻找非常够资格的人才是很难得。尤其是用那么多的时间对她们进行了训练,尤其是如果她们很擅长带来生意。事务所们非常焦虑地想要把她们留住却不能成功。这些女性们在想“为什么我在做这个?”“为什么任何有脑子的人会做这个”。尤其是到这个岁数她们大多数也结婚了,而且通常他们的丈夫会跟她们挣差不多的钱或者更多,所以她们不需要那些钱(*注2)。所以她们会想:“生命中还有其他的意义。”,这是完全正确的想法。所以她们会去找一个从早9点到晚5点的工作,能控制的工作。能让她们雇一个保姆,有几个孩子,也享受一下生活。这才是聪明的活法啊。所以,我们的文化里把问题搞反了。我们在想,一部分上来说,为什么没有更多的女性在掌权的地位?这个问题就是错的。正确的问题是:为什么会有任何男性想要这些掌权的地位?因为这不单单是个掌权的地位。你得是多愚昧才会想:“哦,这是个掌权的地位。”。就像是,没错,但这也是个有着能把人压倒的责任的地位。如果你犯了任何失误,你就完了,识得唔识得呀? 现实不是如果你有了掌权的地位所有人就会做按照你说的然后你就很轻松。把这种想法忘了吧。人们都在指望你时时刻刻都做出正确的指示,100%的时候。或许你喜欢这种感觉,或许你不喜欢。所以,我不知道,人们为什么这么想,好像这些人就是坐在他们办公室里的椅子里一边把脚翘在桌子上抽雪茄一边压迫世界。根本不是这么玩的。这些人的工作时时刻刻都非常艰辛。

So, and it's fine if that's what you want, and some people are like that. They're hyper-industrious people, right, from a trade perspective. No matter where you put them. If you put them in a forest with an axe they just wander around chopping down trees non-stop, right. 'cause they're, it's built into them. But if you want to have a balanced life, and you should want that. You know, because the other thing you'll find, this is God's gospel truth. Is that, the older you get if you have any sense, at all, the more important your family is to you. Like the utility of your career, maybe that peaks around 35 or 40, and it starts to decline pretty rapidly after that. And what happens, if you're fortunate, you have someone in your life that you love that you've woven yourself together with, and you have some kids So that you have something to do from the time you're 50 till the time you're 80.
如果你想要那样的生活,没有问题。有一些人就是像那样的。他们是非常有工业性的人,从商业的角度来说。不管你把他们放在哪里。如果你给他们一把斧子把他们放在森林里,他们就会不停地开始砍树。因为这就是他们生来的本性。但是如果你想有一个均衡的生活,而且你应该想。你们知道,另外一件你们会发现的事情是,而且我感觉这是上帝的福音真理:“你越老,如果你有任何理智的话,你的家庭对你就越重要”。你事业的价值,在35岁或者40岁的时候就到顶了,之后就下跌地很快。如果你很幸运的话,到那时候,你就会有一个生活编织在一起的一个你爱的人,会有一些孩子,让你在50岁到80之间有些事情干。


And so, it's a real mistake. It's a barren future without children. Man, I can tell you that. It's a real mistake. And so we do a terrible job of... Say putting that image forward and saying, "well yeah." Now, you know, because women have access to the birth control pill now and can compete in the same domains as men, roughly speaking, there is a real practical problem here. It's partly an economic problem now, because when I was roughly your age it was still possible for a one income family to exist. Well, you know that wages have been flat except in the upper 1%, since 1973. Why? Well, it's easy. What happens when you double the labour force? What happens? You halve the value of labour. So, now we're in a situation where it takes two people to make as much as one did before. So we went from a situation where women's career opportunities were relatively limited, to where they were relatively unlimited and there were two incomes, to where, and so women could work, to a situation where women have to work and they only make half as much as they would have otherwise and now we're going to go into a situation this is the next step whereas women will work because men won't. and that's what's coming now. So we there is an Economist article showing that 50% now of boys in school are having trouble with their basic subjects and you look around you in universities you can see this happening. I've watched it over decades. I would say 90% of the people in my personality class are now women. There won't be a damn man left in university in ten years, except in the STEM fields, And it's a complete bloody catastrophe. And it's a catastrophe for women, because I don't know where the Hell are you going to find someone to to have a... You know, to marry and have a family with, if this keeps happening. So, and you think when you're 19 because you're so clueless when you're 19. You don't know a bloody thing. You think: "Well I'm not really sure I want children anyways." It's like, oh yeah, you tell how well you've been educated. Jesus. Dismal, dismal.
所以,这是个真正的失误。没有孩子的未来是枯燥的。我可以保证,这是个真正的失误。而且我们对于说明这种情景做得完全不够。你们知道,因为现在女性有了生育控制的手段从而,大概来说,可以和男性在同样的领域里竞争,这造成了一个实际上的问题。这一部分是一个经济上的问题,因为我在你们这么年青的时候,单收入家庭还是可以存在的。你们知道,除了最高的1%,工资自1973年以来一直没有增长。这个问题简单。当你有了双倍的劳动力的时候会发生什么?会发生什么?你把劳动力的价值减半了。所以我们现在的情况就是两个人跟以前一个人挣得一样多。所以我们从女性的就业机会非常有限,到没有限制,一些女性可以选择去工作来挣第二份收入,到今天女性必须工作因为一人只能挣到过去一半的工资,到下一步就是女性会去工作因为男性不去了,这就是将要到来的。经济学人有一篇文章说50%的男孩在学校里对基本的学科有困难,你在四周看看,在大学里也开始有这种现象了。我观察了好几十年了。现在在我性格课里的90%都是女性。再过个十年大学里都不会再有男性了,除了STEM领域之外。这是个完全的灾难,是个对女性的灾难,因为我不知道你们要怎么去找一个人,去结婚/成立家庭,如果这个现象继续发生的话。所以,在你19岁的时候你想,因为你是19岁所以你没有一点头绪,你在想”哦,我不知道我想不想要孩子”。哦,嗯,你告诉我了你的教育怎么样。耶稣啊,太不幸了,太不幸了。

Without fail I got to tell you. Without fail, I've watched women go through their professional careers. Many, many of them. It's a very rare woman who at the age of 30 doesn't consider having a child her primary desire, and the ones that don't consider that generally in my observation there's something that isn't quite right in the way that they're constituted or looking at the world. Sometimes you get women who are truly non-maternal. You know, by temperament. They did.. they have a masculine temper, disagreeable, they're not particularly compassionate, they're not maternal, they're really not that interested in kids. Fair enough, man. But there aren't that many of them and there's plenty who will not admit to themselves, that that's what they most desperately want.
错不了,我告诉你。错不了,我观察了很多女性走过他们的职业生涯。很多,很多。很少有女性在30岁的时候不把要一个孩子当作首要的欲望的,而且根据我的观察不想要的那些往往在她们自身或者看待世界的方式上有一些问题。有些时候确实会有真正没有母性的女性。从性格上,她们有男性化的脾气,不合善,不怎么有同情心,她们不是母性的,她们真的不想要孩子。好吧,但是这种女性真的很少,更多的是不愿意向自己承认但是却非常想要的那种。

Audience member: Do you think women will be better off if they had kids earlier, focus on their career say in their 30s? *sigh* Who knows, like, it's like... It really is a problem. Now, it's a really tough one. I don't think anybody knows the answer to that because... Yeah. Well... Yeah. Yeah, I can't answer that, because I've seen women do a good job of it both ways. And you did get the odd woman who manages a high-powered career and kids, but Jesus those women, man. like, they buy more powerful microwaves because it'll take 45 seconds to cook the food instead of a minute. And I'm not kidding it's like they're up at five, they exercise for half an hour, they make breakfast, they get their kids ready to work. They go to work, they work 14-hour days flat bloody out, they come home and work for another two hours to get their kids organized. They have a nanny to help them out, then they work for two more hours before they go to bed at like 1:00 and then they're up at 5:00 and they do that again. And I'll tell you you better be tough if you're going to do that, physically too, because you'll just burn yourself to a crisp. I've seen some women manage it, you know. But they're like, they're tough and they're rare. Because that's a hell of a regimen. And then if anything goes wrong, you know. You have a sick kid or something like that. Or there's any sort of crisis in your family. It's just, you know, then it becomes too much. And I don't know the answer to that, you know. I mean, the advantage women have is they live about eight years longer than men. Because testosterone kills men, so... Well, that's right. They pay upfront and gain on the, in the long run. But how... it isn't clear how our society should sort this out. We don't know and it's partly we don't know what to do now that women have control of the reproductive function, it's a big mystery. Yep. 、、
*听众成员:您认为如果女性早一点生孩子,之后再在她们30岁之后再关注于自己的事业,这样是不是更好呢?
*答:谁知道呢,这真是个问题。挺难的问题。我不知道任何人可以回答。嗯,嗯,我不知道,因为我见过女性两种路线都能做得很好。确实有那种可以同时掌控高能职业和孩子的女性,但是耶稣啊,这种女人只因为热食物的时间会从1分钟降到45秒就会去买更高功率的微波炉。我不是在开玩笑,她们五点起床,然后活动半个小时,之后做早点,之后把孩子们准备好,他们就去工作了。工作14个小时后回家,她们再花两个小时照顾下孩子,她们有保姆帮忙。之后她们在工作两个小时,等睡觉的时候就凌晨一点了。之后她们再早上五点起来再做一遍同样的事。我告诉你如果你想要这么做的话你得很强硬,身体上也是,因为你会把你自己燃烧地够呛。我见过一些女性能做这些。但是她们特别强硬,也特别稀少。因为这个作息太艰难了。而且一旦出了什么问题,比方说你孩子生病了的话,或者你家里有任何什么问题的话,就太难了。我不知道怎么回答。女性有一个优势,就是她们平均来说比男性多活八年,因为睾酮会杀男性。所以,她们先付出,之后在长远的地方得到回报,但是我们的社会该怎么应对这个现象也是不清楚的。我们不知道怎么办部分上来说是因为女性现在可以控制生育系统了,这是个问题,嗯。

*Audience member starts to speak.. part of is inaudible* "Even if women were to enter the workforce later on, they .... competition with people who are younger "..and that's always a conflict in the workforce that people are always" "hiring younger talent, because..." Yeah. Yes. Well, and the thing is: young stupid people have the advantage of being young. Middle-aged stupid people have the disadvantage of being middle-aged. And so if you're going to hire a young stupid person or a middle-aged stupid person you'll go for the young stupid person. And by stupid I mean, you know. I'm being sarcastic obviously. But I mean, without experience and just getting started in the world. You're much more likely to favor someone young because there's an instant explanation for their relative cluelessness. And it's a problem, you know. So, so I don't know what the answer is, but one answer certainly is, at least in part, is to start letting young women know what being thirty and being female is like, because, and also to disabuse them of the notion that there's something magical about a career. First of all, most people don't have careers, man. They have jobs. And the reason you get paid for a job is because you're being asked to do things you wouldn't do unless you were being paid. And so, it's not some utopia of cigar smoking with your boots up on your desk. That's for sure. Not that would be such a utopia to begin with.
*听众成员:(部分听不清)如果女性晚一点进入劳动力的话,那么她们就要跟更年轻的人竞争,这就是个问题,因为人们总是倾向于雇佣更年轻的人才。
答:对。愚昧的年轻人有年轻的优势。愚昧的中年人有中年的劣势。所以如果你要在愚昧的中年人和年轻人里选的话,你会选那个愚昧的年轻人。说愚昧,我在这里当然是讽刺的意思。我的意思是没有经验,刚进入社会的人。你会很倾向于选年轻人的人因为他们相对的无知有一个很明显的解释。所以,我不知道怎么回答。但是有一个重要的一点是,我们应该开始告诉年轻的女性到了三十岁是什么感觉,而且还应该告诉她们事业不是那么美好的。首先,大部分人没有事业,他们有的是工作。而你做工作有报酬的原因就是你是被叫去做一件没有报酬你不会去做的事情。所以,那不是个抽雪茄翘脚的乌托邦。这是肯定的。当然也不是说那样的世界就是个乌托邦。

注释:
注1. 女性整体上来说比男性更合善
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Colin_Deyoung/publication/51594567/figure/fig10/AS:202723225018385@1425344391433/Overlapping-distributions-of-Agreeableness-for-men-and-women-Vertical-axis-indicates.png
Figure 10 from Weisberg, Yanna & Deyoung, Colin & Hirsh, Jacob. (2011). Gender Differences in Personality across the Ten Aspects of the Big Five. Frontiers in psychology. 2. 178. 10.3389/fpsyg.2011.00178. 
我顺便说一下:为什么男性暴力犯罪比女性暴力犯罪多很多(75%:25%)?就是因为暴力犯罪是由极端不合善的人做的,而男性女性虽然平均合善度没有差很多,但是极端不合善的人男性却多很多。这里也是相似的情景,高级掌权的工作也是一个极端。*当然这我也是从Peterson的另外一个Lecture里听来的。

注2. 女性有嫁给比她们阶级更高的男人的倾向(Hypergamy


附:
鉴于这篇文有些有争议的地方,我来总结下主体的观点:1.只有极低和善度的人才适合掌权的地位和其连带的生活方式。2.和善度在群体里呈正态分布。3.男性和善度平均值比女性平均值稍低。4.但是这个平均值上的微小差异让极低和善度的男性比极低和善度的女性的数量要明显地多很多。5.所以更多的男性在掌权的地位。

参考:
     Jorden Peterson
15
分享 2020-06-06

59 个评论

这个基本都是实话,虽然只适合西方国家。年薪五万以上确实对生活影响变得很小了,三万的汽车,三千的房租,再往上基本上是你花在房子上的钱越多,住在房子里的时间越少。
我不給樓主踩了,因為我突然想到樓主也是轉載
但這種只會把自己的價值觀強加於人,說一些無法求證的「個人經驗」當成論據的廢話就沒必要轉出來浪費世人的時間了
把所有不符合自己想法的都說成不理智、有問題、自欺欺人,在大庭廣眾之下展現自己的傲慢與偏見
垃圾應該呆在垃圾桶裡,而不是被撿起來放在餐桌上和美食一起
女性中也有人真正不想要甚至是讨厌孩子。男性中也有人愿意承担照顾孩子和家庭角色,只不过现在家庭主夫(尤其是东亚社会)还会遭受一些风言风语,这也是男权社会对男性的压迫之一。双方都有工作的家庭,两方也应该共同承担家庭责任。
这人当了几十年的职业心理咨询师。

John Watson比他更有影响力啦,难道Watson的行为和理论就都是对的?
这人当了几十年的职业心理咨询师。

那他竟然不知道什麼樣的說法會顯得自己有說服力而什麼樣的會讓自己看上去像是個自大的蠢蛋?
他對未來的預測是毫無根據的,甚至他根本不願花時間在想每個人可能有不同的生活方式這一點。我想得出太多方式來吐槽他:在90%女性的性格課如何結婚?我可以參加社團活動找男生啊?打工找男生啊?我還可以找女生啊?stem之外的唯一一堂課就是性格了嗎?你們沒歷史、商科、藝術嗎?沒有孩子的未來憑什麼要你來保證是枯燥的?我可以養花種草,或者有任何一種興趣。你沒有任何值得一提的興趣那是你的不幸……
那他竟然不知道什麼樣的說法會顯得自己有說服力而什麼樣的會讓自己看上去像是個自大的蠢蛋?他對未來的預測...

你在说什么,性格课是他自己的专业课,他只是说自己的专业课男性越来越少。至于对没有孩子的未来,他作为心里咨询师+心理学教授从他的经验里说的,你不能说完全没有价值吧。他这个口气是在自己的课里对自己的学生说的,你别往心里去。
他也没有说所有女性都想要孩子:“有些时候确实会有真正没有母性的女性。从性格上,她们有男性化的脾气,不合善,不怎么有同情心,她们不是母性的,她们真的不想要孩子。好吧,但是这种女性真的很少”。
只是说这个适用于大部分的人而已。
John Watson比他更有影响力啦,难道Watson的行为和理论就都是对的?

我不是说都是对的。我是说他的观点有考虑的价值。不只是他“無法求證的「個人經驗」”
关注您了,翻译的文章都很有质量!

但还是想指出一个漏洞,不是所有的工作都是因为钱才有人做的。很多大家挤破头的工作是可以达到自我实现的,比如:终身教授。这个职位几乎最低的抑郁比例,也不会像医生律师一样压力大,而且还有自主权,影响力,和年轻人接触频繁等优点。
你在说什么,性格课是他自己的专业课,他只是说自己的专业课男性越来越少。至于对没有孩子的未来,他作为心...

你才是在說什麼?他說他自己的專業課男性很少,所以未來在整個大學裡都會全是女性
你知道『真的很少』『一般而言』『基本上』『還是有個例』……都是一種學術上避免挨罵的基本措施。再說我是說『沒有小孩會很枯燥……不幸』那一段,這一段聽上去甚至覆蓋了男性
然後他把任何覺得現況不是或至少不完全是市場造成的30歲女性合夥人說成是不理智的,因為任何有理智的都會說同一意見。這句話太好證明了:如果你的意見不同於我說的,你就沒有理智
你才是在說什麼?他說他自己的專業課男性很少,所以未來在整個大學裡都會全是女性你知道『真的很少』『一般...

我不是说了么,这说的是大部分人,不是说所有人。你不要太激动。你仔细看看,这篇文里有不少“ 『真的很少』『一般而言』『基本上』『還是有個例』……”这样的句式,他一直都是这么说的,你可能太激动了没有看到。

另外,这一篇文最重要的就是我斜体粗化的那句话,其他的你不喜欢的話不要入到心里去。我是对于原视频作者的尊重才翻译完的。
你才是在說什麼?他說他自己的專業課男性很少,所以未來在整個大學裡都會全是女性你知道『真的很少』『一般...

我来给你总结他的观点。他的语气可能确实有点吓人。1.只有极低和善度的人才适合掌权的地位和其连带的生活方式。2.和善度在群体里程正态分布。3.男性和善度平均值比女性平均值稍低。4.但是这个平均值上的微小差异让极低和善度的男性比极低和善度的女性的数量要明显地多很多。5.所以更多的男性在掌权的地位。
这个基本都是实话,虽然只适合西方国家。年薪五万以上确实对生活影响变得很小了,三万的汽车,三千的房租,...

这是翻译的问题,英文原文是
Once you make about $60,000 a year for your family, but let's say for you personally, additional income makes zero has zero impact on your quality of life. Zero.
"let's say for you personally"这一句没翻译出来,实际上6万以上,到10万,15万,20万,再往上,生活差别很大
这是翻译的问题,英文原文是Once you make about $60,000 a year fo...

我改了下,你看行不行。还不行的话,你建议我怎么改?
我不是说了么,这说的是大部分人,不是说所有人。你不要太激动。你仔细看看,这篇文里有不少“ 『真的很少...

我說了這些都是一種『你不要打我』的意思,要是說絕對了太容易被推翻了。但是我點到的兩點(從專業課預測大學趨勢以偏概全、擅自斷言別人是否理智或不幸)甚至連這些避嫌用語都沒有
然後至於你粗體的那句話,我之前還沒對它開砲呢,但既然你說是重點我就順手開兩砲
還是這句話,任何不討論生物學前提就在看社會學的都是耍流氓
『為什麼有任何男性想要掌權地位?』
一句話,因為男性是被選擇性別
這就像為什麼在很多鳥類品種裡,男生花枝招展羽毛艷麗,可能還有好歌喉,花在練習跳舞上的時間可能仗著他醒著時的大多數。而女生反而比較暗淡(和人類世界觀相反)
因為在鳥類世界,女性大多都是外貌協會,所以帥哥比較有優勢,帥哥們練習唱歌跳舞就是為了讓妹子給他們生蛋
而人類世界觀裡,如同你在註2裡所寫的,女性會參考社會地位或經濟能力來選擇男性。那男性努力爭取更高的社會地位或收入就和那些鳥練習唱歌跳舞一樣天經地義
而『為什麼沒有更多女性在掌權地位』和『為什麼有任何男性想要掌權地位』是兩個不相關的問題
首先,想要不等於你就會得到,甚至你得到了也不等於你其實想要
事實上,從觀察社會輿論看來,很多女性也的確想要掌權地位。可能比例上不如男性多,但至少絕對數也是很可觀的。當我們對比『想要得到掌權地位的女性』和『女性掌權者』的比例時就能看到對女性而言要成為掌權者的難度,當我們再拿這個比例和男性的比例進行對比時就能看出性別會不會影響人成為掌權者的可能性。如果性別的確會影響,那背後可能有很多原因,包括生理上的差別、心理上的傾向、文化上的不同看法……
我来给你总结他的观点。他的语气可能确实有点吓人。1.只有极低和善度的人才适合掌权的地位和其连带的生活...

你解釋的比他好多了,保守估計原文有一半以上的都在討論一些和和善度毫無關係的內容。我覺得你比他適合做心理學教授
我說了這些都是一種『你不要打我』的意思,要是說絕對了太容易被推翻了。但是我點到的兩點(從專業課預測大...

你前半段的开炮,Peterson自己的观点就是这样的。他的看法跟你一模一样(我看过他其他的讲座说过)。他之前还把女性比为mother nature,说男性跟生存竞争似得找女人。
至于后半段,Peterson的意思是很多想要权力的人不知道得到权力后的生活是怎么样的。
我改了下,你看行不行。还不行的话,你建议我怎么改?

这是你自己翻译的?辛苦了

Once you make about $60,000 a year for your family, but let's say for you personally, additional income makes zero has zero impact on your quality of life.
我觉得可以翻译成 “当你的收入达到了6万美金一年的时候,假如对你个人来讲,更多的收入对你生活没有任何的影响。”
let's say是指一个假设,所以后面才说,很多男性即使在收入对生活没有影响的情况下,仍然会更努力工作,赚更多钱。
這一段好像是Peterson博士在多倫多大學講課的時候錄下來的。Peterson博士講這些話針對的聽眾是加拿大精英階層裡面那些天真爛漫的女學生。很多這樣的女學生受一些進步主義思想的影響,以為女人如果做一番事業、有很高的收入的話,就能夠獲得更高的社會地位、更幸福的家庭生活。

Peterson博士講的就是在反駁這一種思想。概述的話他講了有三點:

  1. 全職工作是非常辛苦的。工作場所的競爭是非常激烈的。
  2. 很多職業女性到了30歲以後,沒有家庭、沒有子女,因此感到後悔。
  3. 在西方,大批女性投入工作,壓低了工資。同時大批男性卻因此喪失了拼命去獲取高薪工作的慾望。一方面是工資低,另一方面是約會市場上有很多有穩定收入的女性,不需要他們拼命去追求高薪。


當然,這一段錄音裡面沒有涉及到的另一個事實是,約會市場裡面最受歡迎的男性是不喜歡職業女性的。這些男性的收入已經能夠給全家帶來體面的生活,多那一份收入的邊際收益很小;而一個不能全心全意照顧家庭的女人,對這種男人來說,成本卻非常高。

品蔥裡面女用戶的成分和西方精英大學裡面那種女學生的成分當然不一樣。如同社會上的女性,品蔥一些女用戶並不是精英家庭出生的;還有一些人沒有成家、生育的慾望;還有一些人跟男人相處不來;等等。精英階級的女大學生絕大多數都是非常健康、非常聰明的,家裡也有很多錢,因此對理想生活的需求和普通人不一樣。
这是翻译的问题,英文原文是Once you make about $60,000 a year fo...


我没注意中文,我回复的时候想的就是个人年薪五六万。同理,家庭的话可以换成十二万。

我理解很多人会不同意,觉得十万,十五万,二十万生活差别很大,但我是同意作者的。我自己年薪二十万(当然到手也就十几万),但是只花五万左右,所以对我个人来说,加薪减薪只是个数字,对我生活没任何影响。
我改了下,你看行不行。还不行的话,你建议我怎么改?


这个文章一点也不政治正确,但非常实在,不过年龄三十岁以下,工作经验五年以下,尤其是liberal青年,有可能体会不到其中的玄妙。不过到时候自然而然就懂了。
JP  反对集权,反对纳粹。但对斯大林主义态度暧昧。 提出“文化马克思主义”,但自己没说明白啥意思。

他本人有基督教宗教背景,跟救世主情节。对有的人,很有吸引力。

听他的演讲风格,有一股浓浓传销风。一副“这才是对的”的态度。例如他的书:生活的12个法则。

拯救大众的感觉。挺多迷失的羔羊,都容易成为他的粉丝。有华人粉丝,一点不奇怪啊

他本人有焦虑症,而且因为是精神科医生背景,可以给自己开药。去年用药过量而昏迷,算是丑闻。

没再关注。腻了。
JP  反对集权,反对纳粹。但对斯大林主义态度暧昧。 提出“文化马克思主义”,但自己没说明白啥意思。...


可。不过他是在批评“文化马克思主义”,或者“后现代马克思主义”。对斯大林是极度批评的,认为欧美主流界批评得力度不够,你搞错了。他也算个知名的保守派人物了,我给各位葱油介绍一下。

至于那个药的事情,好像不是他自己开的,是他的医生给他开的吧。当时他老婆被诊断癌症了,所以他好像焦虑过度了,后来就不知道怎么失控了。
What a pleasant surprise to see your post/article ...

谢谢,不过我只是给品葱各位多引进一些保守派观点。品葱因为专注于反共,好多有意思的话题都被压过去了。我发发文给大家转移转移注意力。关于量子力学,我十岁的时候就读了时间简史。虽然没看懂什么,但是觉得很有趣。
可。不过他是在批评“文化马克思主义”,或者“后现代马克思主义”。对斯大林是极度批评的,认为欧美主流界...


嗯。
最近用药过量,是在俄罗斯,的确不是他自己开的,关键词: jordan peterson benzo russia。成瘾,不是一朝一夕,没有其他医生会冒险主动配合。 benzo是处方药,说他可以给自己开药,是陈述事实。也可能是自己买的,渠道也很多。

对斯大林主义,马克思主义态度暧昧。是这个意思:

他旗帜鲜明地反对集权,不论左右。然而,他的言论本身,试图建构简化的“人生意义”。 常常讲很多话,很煽动,好像很有道理,但没什么干货的感觉。

个人浅见,他所反对的集权,还原主义,却是他自己所认同,并践行的。

我只看过他几个视频,没什么深入研究。

结论是:他的观点,下饭还可以。深入研究,似乎没什么必要。供大家参考。
什么鬼,好像女性天生就要顾家一样,没有家庭没有孩子就会后悔,不知道这种话的依据从何而来。女性有这种想法还是因为父权社会的灌输,其实家庭,孩子,这些东西都不是必选项。
謝謝翻譯~這篇文章我覺得非常棒,雖然我是不生主義者,但是確實很少看到這種寫得不錯的生育派文章。
這篇有點出為什麼越來越多女性不想生的原因、事業與家庭之間的兩難,以及他個人的想法。
當然他的想法並不一定絕對正確,但就是提出來交流嘛。

總比那些一味鼓吹生生生的文章好太多了。
謝謝翻譯。
感谢翻译~ 虽然不是完全赞同乔丹的理论,但不得不说他新颖的观点思路很有启发性。
辯論很精彩,謝謝大家
可能因为没有足够胆识吧,像默克尔这个二逼还是赶紧下去吧
哈,又是鬼话连篇的Jordan Peterson。。。

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jordan_Peterson
rationalwiki对于这篇文章有一整个section
(请注意,这是调侃哦~ 有些用户似乎很认真= =)

Women in the workplace

'Is it possible that young women are so outraged because they are craving infant contact in a society that makes that very difficult?'
—Jordan Peterson, infant craver

Peterson thinks the primary desire of professional women is to be mothers by age 30. Peterson has stated that "there is something that isn't quite right" with women who don't make having children their primary desire by age 30 and that women who don't have children are "isolated" and "miserable" in the latter half of their lives.

Given his belief that women should be mothers, it makes sense that Peterson believes that current "gender antipathy" may be due to the birth control pill:

There was no equality for women before the birth control pill. It's completely insane to assume that anything like that could've possibly occurred. And the feminists think they produced a revolution in the 1960s that freed women. What freed women was the pill, and we'll see how that works out. There's some evidence that women on the pill don't like masculine men because of changes in hormonal balance. You can test a woman's preference in men. You can show them pictures of men and change the jaw width, and what you find is that women who aren't on the pill like wide-jawed men when they're ovulating, and they like narrow-jawed men when they're not, and the narrow-jawed men are less aggressive. Well all women on the pill are as if they're not ovulating, so it's possible that a lot of the antipathy that exists right now between women and men exists because of the birth control pill. The idea that women were discriminated against across the course of history is appalling.

It'll be interesting to see what Peterson thinks of women who have PCOS (testosterone and estrogen imbalance) and have to be on the pill.

Of course, Peterson may not see a need for birth control pills because he appears to believe that men and women cannot work together. For example, in an interview with Vice News, Peterson JAQed off about whether it's possible for men and women to work together in the workplace and asserted that women who don't want to be sexually harassed but wear makeup are "hypocritical".
哈,又是鬼话连篇的Jordan Peterson。。。https://rationalwiki.or...


哈,又是鬼话连篇的rationalwiki。。。

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RationalWiki
品蔥裡面女用戶的成分和西方精英大學裡面那種女學生的成分當然不一樣。如同社會上的女性,品蔥一些女用戶並不是精英家庭出生的;還有一些人沒有成家、生育的慾望;還有一些人跟男人相處不來;等等。精英階級的女大學生絕大多數都是非常健康、非常聰明的,家裡也有很多錢,因此對理想生活的需求和普通人不一樣。


高能预警,品葱都是底层女实锤了啦!
哈,又是鬼话连篇的rationalwiki。。。https://en.wikipedia.org/w...

Well,可能不鬼话连篇的都懒得搭理Dr Peterson吧。。。也只能落得去rational wiki找了呢。
真不知道是幸还是不幸呢~
Well,可能不鬼话连篇的都懒得搭理Dr Peterson吧。。。也只能落得去rational wi...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Peterson

只是你自己不幸罢了。
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Peterson只是你自己...

还真是挺不幸的呢,Jordan Peterson正式的心理学的课其实是严肃严谨的。

可是偏偏出来讲些五四三有的没的,哗众取宠,让人怀疑也许是嗑药很需要钱,也只能以这种方式搏曝光来赚一笔了吧。

无奈不幸总是会延续的,如今热度过去,还有谁在乎。哭了,真是不幸。
还真是挺不幸的呢,Jordan Peterson正式的心理学的课其实是严肃严谨的。可是偏偏出来讲些五...

哈哈哈哈哈哈,拭目以待吧,看看pathological left还能称霸多久。
哈哈哈哈哈哈,拭目以待吧,看看pathological left还能称霸多久。


啊?您为什么突然就扯上了left or right?

加拿大的right party - conservative昨天选新的领导人第一场辩论的第一个提问环节,故意请了4个人, 3个是女性,都有说自己的工作,1个是LGBTQ,1个是移民,提问的问题是如何团结。
我想这跟Jordan Peterson女人就是想要生小孩的神奇逻辑也可以归在一起吗?恐怕不行吗?
Peterson可以代表加拿大右派吗?那上面的3个女性要怎么办?

蠢货就是蠢货,因为左右立场一样就去defend蠢货,或者更惨,崇拜蠢货,那只会让自己也无法避免的变成蠢货。
啊?您为什么突然就扯上了left or right?加拿大的right party - conser...

哈哈哈哈,时间会证明谁是蠢货的。对这篇文章实质性的讨论我已经跟NZRdlClr5做过了一次,你往上翻翻就是。
我先说我支持Jordan Peterson, 但是我可以肯定以现在的政治和舆论氛围,他在加拿大一定混的相当不好,他当年在电视上和Cathy Newman那段辩论非常的精彩,Cathy Newman利用各种诡辩,偷换概念,去编造Jordan Peterson没说过的话来攻击他,都没有任何效果,Jordan的观点始终都很简洁直白,就是如果你认可人类社会发展到现在的结果,那你就要接受男女在职场的结果上不平等这一个现实,如果你否认这个结果,那你就是在推翻人类历史发展的正确性,之前人类所建立的社会结构是错误的,因为这个社会结构造成了男女在职场上结果的不平等。

他一直都强调,男女在职场上的不平等是多种因素造成的,性别歧视只是其中之一而且是占比最小的部分,更多的是因为男女从生理到心理的差异所造成的的因素,你即便彻底抹杀掉性别歧视这个单一因素,所造成的的
结果就是女性能够在掌权位置大概再多个1%的,不能再多了

企业管理层大多是男性是市场的选择,是社会的选择,如果你要去改变这个结果,你必须从头开始改变这个社会结构,改变人类的消费习惯 消费心理,虽然这听上去有一点马克思历史决定论的成分,但事实就是如此
我先说我支持Jordan Peterson, 但是我可以肯定以现在的政治和舆论氛围,他在加拿大一定混...


亲,Peterson的世界观某种意义上像是
世界run by males (somewhat a fact) = 所以世界就该run by males (the right way to do it because this is how we have been doing it,伟大光荣正确容不得一丝怀疑)

男女在职场上的不平等发展到今天难道仅仅因为生理构造造成的吗?
难道不是因为生理构造的不同而产生了根深蒂固的歧视的文化?
请问哪个掌权的高管工作需要用到男性生殖器吗?还是拥有突起的乳房会妨碍高管做出合理的决定?
难道不是Peterson所说的女性就是要生小孩这种运用生理构造不同而歪曲臆测进行强盗逻辑造成的先入为主的傲慢偏见才是女性的在职场上被歧视的根本原因?

我佩服您支持Peterson的勇气,但真心觉得所谓的想要推翻社会反社会型人格的可正是Peterson本人啊。不然他也不会在加拿大混得如此不好了吧。(回到我前面说的,如果去uoft看看他教的心理学课,其实我个人认为也是很可惜最后变成了这样。)
亲,Peterson的世界观某种意义上像是世界run by males (somewhat a fa...

一个empirical fatct是更性别平等的国家男女职业选择差别更大,已经有一堆研究得到这个结果。这已经足够说明社会制度并不是差别的原因,因为如果这个假设是正确的话那么更性别平等的国家男女职业差别应该更小。

这是比较新的一个研究:
Mac Giolla, E., & Kajonius, P. J. (2018). Sex differences in personality are larger in gender equal countries: Replicating and extending a surprising finding. International Journal of Psychology. doi:10.1002/ijop.12529

这个是更老的一个:
Schmitt, D. P., Realo, A., Voracek, M., & Allik, J. (2008). Why can’t a man be more like a woman? Sex differences in Big Five personality traits across 55 cultures. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 94(1), 168–182. doi:10.1037/0022-3514.94.1.168
亲,Peterson的世界观某种意义上像是世界run by males (somewhat a fa...

你的理论不是很可笑么,生理构造的不同造成了根深蒂固的歧视文化?抱歉,是生理构造的不同产生了差异,而这种差异决定了现状,说白了如果你对认为这是根深蒂固的歧视文化说明你从根本上否认人类发展几千年来的历史,掌权的高管是由市场需求决定的,如果市场对这个企业的需求是需要一位女性特质的高管,那企业就会选出一位女性高管,因为这符合市场需求和企业发展需求

最简单的例子就是Lush,这家的核心是企业文化而非产品,所以公司高层大部分为女性,男性也有高比例的同性恋,这是市场需求决定的,市场对这家公司的需求就是人文情怀的企业文化而并非那所谓纯天然无动物实验的香皂,同理 为什么男性跳芭蕾舞没人看,这是不是对男性的歧视?为什么男性从事幼教 护理等行业会被看不起,生来就更具同理心 同情心的男性在这里是不是遭到性别歧视? Jordan Peterson只是讲出了左派们不敢面对的事实,因为承认这种事实就等于否认自己一直以来的追求,而且我觉得他这种类型的人在目前政治正确当道的加拿大混的不好是很正常的,这就跟民主斗士在中共混的不好是一个道理
亲,Peterson的世界观某种意义上像是世界run by males (somewhat a fa...

以防你听不懂我再多说一点,我认同Jordan Peterson对于性别歧视上的观点不代表我认同他的一切观点,他对于男女在职场上的差异解释的非常简洁明了,企业高层男女比例差异大是一个结果,你要从这个“果”去推导一个单一的“因”是完全错误的,因为你只设定了一个单一变量,如果你观察不同行业,不同角度,就会得到截然不同的结果,比如你以世界500强为样本,得到的结果是企业高层男女比例差距过大,但是你并没有发现世界500强组成的行业是非常有局限性的,银行业,汽车工业,能源企业,保险企业,金融业,电子设备,互联网,这些行业组成了世界500强的半壁江山,毫无疑问男性在这些产业中具有统治地位,但是你没有看到那些没有进入世界500强但女性占据统治地位的行业,护理 服装设计 幼教 美妆 等等,这恰好也就解释为什么往往男性担任高层的公司更具竞争力,因为这是需求导致的,不是什么‘根深蒂固的性别歧视’
What a pleasant surprise to see your post/article ...

I agree with most of what you said above. I've personally read a lot of JP's stuff, in my opinion, one big focus he really wants to convey is the awakening of true individualism. Some of his words were like: I believe that the individual is the locus of salvation and redemption. / The answer to the problem of humanity is the integrity of the individual / You can't have individual Sovereignty without fundamental axioms. These are the very things that 胡适 has emphasized on years ago, and still what every Chinese individual really needs.
嗯。最近用药过量,是在俄罗斯,的确不是他自己开的,关键词: jordan peterson benz...

--- 个人浅见,他所反对的集权,还原主义,却是他自己所认同,并践行的。
What does it mean by '还原主义’? and how has he agreed and implemented on this ?
Can you elaborate on this? I hope you don't come to a ton of conclusions so fast tho, after having just watched a few online speeches of him.
他的一些论点是有可取之处的,但是女人一到30就想要孩子,不想要的就是有问题,是个什么玩意儿?我看他根本不了解女人。
如果成为高管=反社会,这是不是说明我们的企业文化出了很大的问题?类比国内官场,只有利欲熏心工于心计的人才能爬到上层,你是不是会觉得最好的办法是推翻这套官僚系统,而不是劝善良正直的人都不要从政。
--- 个人浅见,他所反对的集权,还原主义,却是他自己所认同,并践行的。What does it m...


还原主义 Reductionism, meaning simplify complicated phenomena.
I did listen to his podcast and read one of his books. his debate with zizek on youtube...

just saying that you don't need to swallow the whole shit to know if it's shit. Not all his speeches and lectures were useless. like 12 rules of life, some of his ideas can be useful. it's not necessarily what he said was right or wrong,but it was just too simply.

he's ok, and not much to dig into. As a scholar, he can do better than jsut simply telling ppl what's right/wrong, man/woman, like/dislike,,,? if he wants to become another Jesus. ..come on, I rather read the bible myself.

have your own judgment
勞您有心,翻譯辛苦。謝謝。彼特遜雖然不全對,但值得一讀。不必與亢進的女權主義者或其他亢進者纏鬥。他們只想要別人同意自己,即使引理據也常常是引附己者而視而不見異己者。亢進者不能與之理論,他們已被情緒左右。不只是亢進的女權主義者。祝您安好。
这人当了几十年的职业心理咨询师。

我不否认Peterson的专业经验,但是他对Keto的盲目信任以及药物滥用使得我对他的判断力非常怀疑
楼主真的辛苦了 其实翻译细节什么的真的还好 不会对原文原意有多大影响 而且品葱的人 应该大部分都具备一些英语阅读能力吧 更别说其中很多的表达是很口语化的 就比如let's say 既可以说是假设 也可以说是某种程度上的解释 可理解为“这么说吧” 我开始没有看您的翻译 后来低下一堆人讨论翻译的事才过了几眼 表达的很清晰啊......我不太喜欢pederson 但是他很多话讲的真的挺实在的 特别是在女性权利研究和权力研究分布这一块 他也绝对算是当下能绝对拥有话语权的学者之一 感谢贡献!
太同意你的观点了 虽然认同他的一些意见 但是对于整个人的风格真的是吃不消.......看他的演讲 超过3分钟我就得去补两个甄嬛传或者rome的片段来压压惊

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