Iconic quotations of Zhongjing Liu, translated (1)

Preamble: Zhongjing Liu is a historian and a thought leader of China's Alt-right. He is one of the theorists behind Greater China's pendulum swing towards the right, which delivered the Hong Kong protests and Tsai Ing-wen's re-election in Taiwan. A Fandom group has collected some of his most iconic quotations (source). I am translating a selected ones into English (with the aid of Google Translate), as I believe that every identitarian and patriot should know that they are not alone in the fight against global communism. Let me know what you think.

在任何无神论者和平等主义者占据主流的社会中,法统就是一个笑话。合法与不法的区别犹如剧院闲人兴之所至的喝彩与倒彩,轻若鸿毛。正如吉本所说,东方意味着人人都生活在恐怖和不确定性之中。智者和功臣都像屈原笔下的美人芳草一样:以色事人,色衰爱弛。最可悲的是:他们即使明知自己的下场,仍然没有任何其他选择。

In any societies where atheists and egalitarians have become mainstream, the rule of law becomes a farce. There, the boundaries between the law and violations of it are no longer serious, like the cheers and boos of idlers in a theatre. Edward Gibbon said, the Orient means that everyone lives in terror and uncertainty. It is a place where the wise and the heroes are treated like the tragic young beauty in the tales by Qu Yuan: she was loved only because she was beautiful. As she ages, her lover's affection fades. The most sorrowful reality is that although the people in such societies know what awaits them, they have no alternative choice.

孔子说“述而不作”,我想这个意思是“用普通学者的观点来重新解释经典,而不打算重新塑造传统”。我的意思大概如此,不会在现有的基础上重新创造一个不伦不类的新传统,我更想要在日耳曼和英国的传统来移植到中国,假定中国是一片沙漠,那么我希望通过我的工作,来让西方的理论移植到中国长出绿洲。这是我想要达到的效果。

Confucius said, "transmit, but do not create." I think he wants his students to read the classics, understand and build upon it, not to reshape and turn it into a bizarre and new tradition. That is my intention with these theories. I am not looking to create a bizarre and new school of thought. I want to have the British and German traditions transplanted into China. If China is a desert, then, by my work, I hope I can nourish an oasis with the seeds from Europe. That is what I long to see.

认清自己的位置,做自己该做的事情,一切成败利钝交给上帝。

Accept your calling, do what you are destined to do, and let God decide for the rest.

平等化通常以追求“自由的平等”为开端,可是一旦走错了路,就会演变为“奴役的平等”。然而,对中国人而言,这一切已经是既成事实。

The pursuit of equality usually starts with the pursuit of "equality under freedom." However, a few missteps will take it to "equality under slavery." For the Chinese, this undesired result is a fait accompli.

价值意义上的平等是反文明的,花朵和野草一定要亲疏有别,参天大树和灌木丛一定要贵贱有别。我们不能忘记,大多数人类根本没有产生文明、只能学习外来文明。在已经存在的文明中,也只有极少数人有能力理解、更不用说创造其最高成就。大多数人只能选择,做园丁还是做破坏者。在迄今为止的大部分历史上,平等主义者是破坏者。他们的价值观进入主流,就是严冬来临和文明替代的预兆。

Egalitarianism, as an ideology, is an antithesis to civilization. Flowers and weeds must be separated from each other; and towering trees and bushes must be valued at different prices. We must realize that most humans are not inventors of civilization. They can only learn from civilizations that have already been invented. Even in already-invented civilizations, only a few are gifted to understand it, let alone to reach higher achievements than it has ever been done. For the rest of them, they can only choose to be gardeners or vandals. For much of our history to date, egalitarians have been vandals. Every time when their beliefs entered the mainstream, it was followed by an arduous winter where the civilization died.

我可以很负责任地说,大家一点儿都不平等。西方正典独占 95%,包括中国在内的其他几个文明,加起来也只合那一个零头。所以在我心目中,多元文化论在事实层面和价值层面都是完全站不住脚的。当然比方说唐朝的时候,来了一个朝鲜人说,我们各文明是平等的,朝鲜文明是一支、越南文明是一支、日本文明是一支,突厥文明是一支,你们大唐文明也是一支。然后大唐人很礼貌地说,对,是这样的,多元文化,我们是平等的。但他很可能在心里说:亲爱的,我们不在同一个水平线上,无论从深度上还是数量上,你有的我全有,我的很多东西你连知都不知道。西方也讲多元文化,意思是这里有一棵大树,从别的灌木丛里面摘几个果子,挂在我这个圣诞树上,多几个花样,好看些。情况就是这样的。

I can tell you in all seriousness that we are anything but equal. Western civilization accounts for the 95%. Everything else, including the civilizations of Ancient China, sums up to a few percentage points. Therefore, like I said, multiculturalism is indefensible both as a reality and as an ideal. Let's say, for instance, during the Tang Dynasty, a Korean came and said that our civilizations are all equal. The Korean civilization is equal to the Vietnamese civilization, which is equal to the Japanese civilization, which is equal to the Turkic civilization, which is equal to the Tang civilization. So the Tang responded courteously, sure, why not; we love multiculturalism, we are all equal. But the Tang is likely thinking to himself, well, my dear, in any way, shape, or form we are not even close. I can build whatever you can build, and you don't even have a clue about the best I can build. The West is also talking about multiculturalism, by planting a giant Christmas tree and taking a few exotic fruits from the other bushes, making the tree less boring. That's it.

宗教是文明最核心的 DNA,但我们一般只从政治、经济角度看,对这一块是直接无视的。可以这么说,希伯莱传统在天主教统治时期是潜伏状态,经过新教改革浮出水面,成为主流动力,然后生长出近代一些新教国家,像荷兰、英国、美国。如果说今天这个世界上有一个正统的话,这就是正统,但却是中国人最陌生的。因为中国人从本质上来讲比较世俗,不近神学。

Religion is like the DNA of a civilization, but many of us Chinese only look at a civilization through the lenses of political science and economics, overlooking the religious part entirely. I think that the Hebrew tradition was dormant during the Roman Catholic hegemony. It only became a mainstream influence after the Protestant Reform, and from that Reform, modern Protestant states like the Netherlands, England, and the United States emerged. If there is an orthodoxy in the world today, Protestantism is the orthodoxy, but it is nevertheless so unfamiliar to the Chinese. It seems that the Chinese are so secular in nature, uninterested in learning anything about God.

日本武士道讲气节,是有封建制度作支撑的。封建制度是部落的直接变形,代表文明的青春期。封建制度没有知识分子,只有骑士。骑士能够做到的,知识分子当然做不到。欧洲本来就是封建制度的产物,自由是骑士抵抗王权的产物,民主是全民分享贵族等级价值观和责任感的产物。日本是亚洲的日耳曼和撒克逊,具有天然的封建主义亲和力。

Japan's bushido speaks of integrity and is supported by a feudal system. The feudal system is a direct evolution from the primitive tribes and represents the adolescence of a civilization. Feudalism had no intellectuals, only knights. The knights can do many things that the intellectuals cannot. Europe is born from feudalism. The notion of freedom is born from the will of the knights to resist the power of the king. The notion of democracy is the notion that all should share the values and the responsibilities of the aristocrats. Japan is the Germany and the Saxony of Asia, born with the natural affinity to feudalism.

中国是土耳其和拜占庭的精神兄弟,属于德性败坏的晚期文明。太监和女人依靠诡诈来战斗,臣民则是驯服的家畜。士大夫从古代骑士演变为近代文人的过程,就是德性衰败的过程。离春秋时代越近,残余的德性越多。

China is the spiritual brother of the Turkish Empire and the Byzantine Empire, where, at the terminal of their civilization, morality has collapsed. There, with their trickery, eunuchs and women are responsible for combat, and imperial subjects have become docile livestock. The devolution of China's scholar-officials from ancient aristocrats to modern cynics has witnessed the collapse of morality. The closer to the Spring and Autumn period, the more morality had existed.

我们现在所知的科学方法,大部分都在中世纪产生和完善; 但毛毛虫不会让人联想到蝴蝶,有些人甚至为了热爱蝴蝶而反对毛毛虫。人类的命运就像法布尔描写的蝉,经年累月的地下黑暗,片刻阳光下的翱翔。你知道,有些人是负责积累的,有些人是负责挥霍的――像路易十四和汉武帝这种人,前几辈小心翼翼积累的财富在他手里挥霍一空,留下的累累负债要由他的子孙偿还,没多久他的王朝就覆灭了。但人们如果只看表面现象,会觉得法国在路易十四手里最辉煌。

The scientific method as we know, was mostly invented and perfected in the Middle Ages; but caterpillars don't quite look like butterflies, and some lovers of butterflies even dislike caterpillars. The fate of humanity is like the cicada described by Fabre. It has to endure months and years of darkness, for a moment of soaring into the light. You know, some people accumulate wealth, and others squander -- like Louis XIV and the Emperor Wu of Han: The wealth painstakingly accumulated by the previous generations was squandered by one man, leaving his posterity nothing but mountains of debt. And their dynasties did not continue for long afterwards. If one observe casually, they may feel that France was the most prosperous during the reign of Louis XIV.

专制国家比起封建国家来,社会力量软弱、涣散,所以国家力量才显得相对强大。这是在专制国家内部比。但从绝对值看,专制国家的军队不如封建骑士精良,因为前者的假想敌是没有武装的散沙顺民,实际战斗力仅仅相当于治安警察; 而后者的假想敌是旗鼓相当的精英武士,军事素质极强。

Compared to feudal states, an autocratic state seems quite powerful, only because its civilians are so powerless and disorganized. And that is when you compare within. When compared without, the army of an autocracy are not nearly as good as feudal knights, because the intended enemy of an autocracy is its own unarmed, sand-like, and good-natured civilians. The army of an autocracy only has to be as good as a police force. Meanwhile, the intended enemy of feudal knights is seasoned foreign warriors with strong military qualities.

中国历史上,春秋以后最自由的时代就是民国初年,但它肯定是不可持续的。因为只有当社会上的团体具备能力维持自治,他的那个自由才是可持续的。如果像民国初年那种知识分子团体,非常松散,一点抵抗力也没有,那么早晚会有什么力量冒出来把它打倒,而它几无还手之力。 像傅斯年、陈寅恪他们是非常任性的,像撒娇的孩子一样自由自在,但是这样日子长不了。他们能够在北洋军阀面前撒娇,在蒋介石面前撒娇,但是后来,全部整倒。孩子撒娇的条件是什么呢? 面对宠爱他、纵容他的人。如果有人想要整肃他们,这些士大夫一点还手之力都没有。

In Chinese history, the period with the most freedom after the Spring and Autumn was the early years of the Old Republic of China, but it certainly was not built to last. A free people can only stay free if the civilian organizations in that society can autonomously defend themselves. If these were like the groups of intellectuals in the early Old Republic, so loose and defenseless, then sooner or later someone with force would emerge and destroy these groups that cannot defend themselves. The intellectuals of the Old Republic, like Fu Sinian and Chen Yinque, were so capricious like coquettish children thinking they are free. But their freedom would not last. They could be capricious under the Beiyang Clique. They could be capricious under Chiang Kai-shek. But later, they were all put down (by the CCP). When can a child be capricious? Under those who love and pamper them. If someone has premeditated to purge them, these self-styled "scholar-officials" have nothing to defend themselves.

春秋时代一去不复返了,后代中国文明从来没有达到过类似的高度,而新中国是无产者的世界。欧洲文明在第一次世界大战以后遭受重创,能不能够复兴到原来那个高度,难说。 我对欧洲文明大概有一种骑士对贵妇的感觉,就是可以不顾自身利益去维护她,尽管这对我没有任何实际的好处。

The Spring and Autumn period is forever gone, and the Chinese civilization afterwards has never reached comparable heights. The New Republic of China is a world of proletarians. The European civilization was so badly injured by the World War I. It is difficult to say whether it can be restored to what it once was. Perhaps to the European civilization, I have the feelings of a knight to a noblewoman. That is, I will defend her regardless, although that doesn't serve myself anything good.

全盛时代的中国文明要比晚近繁荣、高尚得多,然后就是一路溃败。在春秋,孔子快要到晋国的时候,他敬佩的两个大夫被杀,他就断然拂袖而去; 他的学生子路会在决斗的时候停下来给自己整衣冠,结缨而死; 还有宋襄公在两军对阵时表现出来的迂仁…… 这些都类似欧洲封建时期的骑士精神。

Chinese civilization in its heyday was more prosperous and noble than anything Chinese that followed, and then it took the path of self-destruction. In the Spring and Autumn period, when Confucius was about to arrive at the Dukedom of Jin, he heard that two grand scholars that he esteemed there were executed, and he decided to turn around and leave Jin. Once, a student of Confucius, Lu, was killed in a duel only because he had to straighten his robe and hat. There was also the tale where Duke Xiang of Song refused to attack enemy troops in a river... These were like the chivalry spirit of feudal Europe.

什么叫亚文化群体? 比方在美国,常有几百个青年结成社团,宣称我们不信基督教,信佛教。但是他们也不去研究佛经,只是凭自己的想象来搞佛教:听非主流音乐、吃素食、在野外搭帐篷、搞生态环境保护等等,过一种特殊的公社式生活,这在美国就是一个亚文化群体。你把它放大 N 倍,中国就是世界上最大的一个亚文化群体,它为了维持内部稳态,必须把主流文化排斥在外。

What is a subculture? For instance, a few hundred youths in America form a society, claiming that they do not believe in Christianity, but Buddhism instead. However, they don't actually study Buddhist scriptures, only practising Buddhism based on their own imaginations: listening to indie music, eating vegetarian food, setting up tents in the wild, engaging in environmental activism, and so on; living in a communal life. This is a subculture in America. If you magnify this society many times, then what you are seeing is China. China is the largest subculture in the world. In order to maintain internal stability, it has to repel any ideas of the mainstream culture.

好死不如赖活,一般就会死得最快最绝。封建制度的战争死亡率极低,所以欧洲人才会觉得死几个平民罪大恶极,在费拉社会根本就是理所当然。元末,蒙古领主骑士的山西死亡率最低。其次是张士诚和苏松士绅地区。朱元璋陈友谅的流寇 - 邪教区,人口基本替换。所以才有洪洞大槐树、江西填湖广移民。明末,除满洲骑士保护区和江东士绅汉奸区外,人口再度灭绝殆尽。春秋封建和日本战国号称乱世,反而比较安全。归根结蒂,散沙就是牺牲人。封建农奴其实有确定的共同体,反而安全。

If one would rather a live coward than die a hero, he will likely die the soonest and in the most brutal way. Wars under feudalism had a very low mortality rate, so Europeans felt that the death of a few commoners was a horrible crime; while in a fellahinized society, that would almost be indistinguishable from a few more commoners dying by natural causes. During the collapse of the Yuan Dynasty, Shanxi Province controlled by Mongol knight-lords had the lowest mortality rate. Territories controlled by Zhang Shicheng and the Suson Gentry had the second lowest mortality rate. However, territories controlled by Zhu Yuanzhang and Chen Youliang's ronins and millenarian sect had their population essentially replaced. That was the reason of subsequent great migration of Hongtong Dahuaishu and from Jiangxi to Hu-Guang. At the end of the Ming Dynasty, with the exception of the Manchurian knights' protectorate and the Jiangdong Gentry's traitorate, the population of China was nearly wiped out again. Some think that that the Spring and Autumn period and Japan's Sengoku period were constantly troubled by social upheavals and wars, but people were actually rather safe. In final words, fellaheen are waiting to be slaughtered, while feudal serfs, in their collectivity, are rather defended.

其实我一直觉着 秦政以后,华夏区域一直趋向生物退化 -- 家畜化。蛮性强 - 血气强 - 好斗性强品系诛九族机会明显高于其他品系,二十世代选种足以造成相当遗传差异。因而中国男性之女性化、体毛缺少相当明显。天下太平同样有利于家畜化品种高生育淹没。在其他缺乏中央集权 - 太平之福体系区域,淘汰 - 选择方向相反。

Actually, I have often felt that after the founding of Qin Dynasty, the people of China have been rolling down a path of devolution -- becoming like domestic livestock. The breeds of Chinese that are brave, upright, and aggressive have significantly higher probability to receive the treatment of nine kinship exterminations. Selection for 20 generations is sufficient to cause considerable genetic deviations. It is for this reason that the Chinese men are visibly feminized and lack of body hair. The abundance of food could also cause the the livestock-like breeds of Chinese to flood the gene pool. In other regions of the world where the centralized authority and abundance of food were not the case, selection was in the opposite direction.

在后封建 - 专制 - 散沙社会有组织资源,通常不及封建性社会组织资源,犹如澳洲袋狼不及欧亚狼。如果以日本五山僧侣为准,青帮、洪门、三合会、一贯道都相当涣散; 因为演化强度取决于环境压力。官僚体系自身组织力同样不强,但足以应付散沙社会。利玛窦所谓: 中国人自以为最优,主要在于未见世面。

The organization of resources in the post-feudal, autocratic, and fellahinized societies is usually worse than that of the feudal society, like Thylacines couldn't organize nearly as well as Eurasian wolves. If you use the Gozan Seido (Five Mountain System) as a standard, then China's Green Gang, Hongmen, Triad, and I-Kuan Tao are rather poorly organized. This could be because that the velocity of evolution depends on the environmental pressure. Bureaucratic systems are also weakly organized, but it is strong enough to suppress a fellahinized society. Matteo Ricci said: The Chinese think they are the best, only because they have not seen the rest of the world.

虚无主义史观赞扬的伟大人物,往往是文明的挥霍者、共同体的毁灭者或汲取者。积累者和保护者反而默默无闻,甚至遭到蓄意的丑化。这些迹象的意义比事件本身更为重大,因为秃鹰不会在活人头上盘旋。老鼠敢于跳上餐桌,就是因为它们所在的船只岌岌可危。

Historical nihilists often praise the parasites, the destroyers of collectivities, and the squanderers of civilizations as great figures. Those who accumulated and defended for the civilizations are either unheard of from the nihilists, or purposefully vilified. The significance of these signs is more important than the the deeds of the figures, because vultures do not hover over the living, and rats jump up to the table only because they know that the ship is about to sink.

埃及早在诸夏诞生以前,就已经步入吏治国家的最后挥霍,然后依靠努比亚人和利比亚人续命。最初的蛮族仍然敬畏埃及的余光,愿意冒充埃及人,这种所谓的同化似乎永无止境。然而后来的波斯人和希腊人就不觉得即使古典黄金时代的埃及有什么值得敬畏和续命的,埃及末人在希腊罗马和基督教伊斯兰教的辉煌面前也不再自信永生,最后的灰烬终于冷却。今天的埃及人以阿拉伯继承人自居,科普特人以东方正教继承人自居。

Egypt had already entered the final splurge as a bureaucratic state even before the birth of Cathayan states. Egypt had to rely on the Nubians and Libyans to survive. The conquering barbarians still exalted the dying light of Egypt, and agreed to pretend to be Egyptians. This "assimilation," at that time, seemed be able to sustain for eons, and yet the Persians and Greeks that came later did not feel that there was anything to be exalted or worth restoring in Egypt, not even anything about her past golden age. The last Egyptians were no longer confident that their civilization could continue, especially as they saw the achievements of Greece, Rome, Christianity, and Islam. There, the ashes of Egyptian civilization finally cooled. Today's Egyptians consider themselves to be the descendents of Arabs, and the Copts, the descendents of the Eastern Orthodoxy.

责任先与权利,荣誉先于利益;强者的谦卑,骄傲的服从;搏击强梁,卵翼妇孺;不轻易承诺,但所做永远多于所言;神态自若地相信最坏的前景,但绝不退缩;与其背弃信任你的人,毋宁死。这些就是维多利亚时代和爱德华时代英国人称之为“品质”的东西。相反,崇拜权力、恃强凌弱,就是吉普林诗中“没有律法的下等人。这种人不知敬畏上帝,《旧约》上帝的雷霆之怒一定会落在他们头上。

Responsibilities come before rights. Honor comes before personal interests. Be humble when strong, and obey proudly. Fight invaders valiantly, and defend women and children with fondness. Never promise easily, but always commit more than you have promised. Face calmly what might become the worst, but have no fear. Choose death over betraying those who have trusted you. These are what the Victorian and Edwardian Englishmen called "character." On the contrary, those who worship power and love bullying are the "lawless and classless folks" in Kipling's poem. Such people have no fear for God, and the thundering wrath of the Lord, like in the Old Testament, will surely fall upon them.

法统只能存在于:贵族封建制、立宪共和国、联邦。因为法统 = 各宪法主体共治 - 平衡,其前提为:存在多元政治主体(各阶级、各自治团体或各邦国)。就迄今历史而言,立宪共和国、联邦大多源于贵族封建制前身。秦政 - 专制平等主义仅有一盘散沙平等奴隶,有形态阶级或地方共同体已不存在,因而不存在宪法契约主体,行宪基本失败。事实上,帝国 - 专制平等主义代表文明没落前最后阶段。法统 - 立宪政体代表文明壮年,封建 - 野蛮部落代表文明青年 - 幼儿时期。

The rule of law can only persist under aristocratic feudalism, a constitutional republic, or a constitutional confederation. This is because the rule of law is essentially the co-governance and the balance of power among entities that agree to the constitution. The premise is that multiple political entities (classes, autonomous groups, or confederate states) exist. As far as history is concerned, most of the constitutional republics and constitutional confederations originated from their aristocratic feudal predecessors. The Qin System, or in other words, the autocratic egalitarian system, has only fellaheen in equally enslaved status like loose sand. There, morphological classes and regional collectivities do not exist. Since there are no entities that come to the constitutional contract, attempts of constitutionalism will fail. In fact, an empire under the autocratic egalitarian system is the last stage before a civilization's collapse; The rule of law and constitutional governance is the prime years of a civilization; and savage tribes and feudalism is the youth and early childhood of a civilization.

进步是政治家最喜爱的概念,却是普通法家最需要警惕的概念。迄今为止,政治自由和司法公正还没有遇见过比普通法更忠诚的朋友。

Progressivism is a favorite concept by the politicians, but it should be alarming to common law jurists. To date, political freedom and justice have not met any partners that are more loyal than the common law.

多国体系是文明起死回生的最仁慈道路,任何反对者都将不得不面临更加残酷而且无效的选择。

The disintegration of an empire is the most benevolent way to bring a civilization back to life. Anyone who opposes it will have to face more cruel and ineffective choices.
57
分享 2020-02-10

48 个评论

I now know China is the largest hipster hub!!
这里头好多段落我都是第一次读到,请问原文在哪里可以找到?
这里头好多段落我都是第一次读到,请问原文在哪里可以找到?

原文在此:https://auntology.fandom.com/wiki/刘仲敬经典语录(一二三)

要翻譯劉老的文章還是非常辛苦的。各種用典不斷,尤其是中國歷史上的典故,都需要我去專門查閱西方的中國歷史學者所制定的名詞。
刘仲敬经典语录的第一部分我已經有選擇性地翻譯完了。我把後面回复裡面的內容也都編輯進了主帖,方便大家閱讀。
原文在此:要翻譯劉老的文章還是非常辛苦的。各種用典不斷,尤其是中國歷史上的典故,都需要我去專門查閱西...

看着都一阵恶寒,大量的专有名词,政治词语,宗教词语,军事词语,排比句。翻译起来真的是非常难的,虽然我觉得阿姨的历史水平只比普通历史公众号高一点。
多谢楼主的劳动,楼主辛苦了,恨不得点十个赞。
看着都一阵恶寒,大量的专有名词,政治词语,宗教词语,军事词语,排比句。翻译起来真的是非常难的,虽然我...

我英語比漢語水平略好,因此這個艱鉅的任務就成了我的使命召喚。

多谢楼主的劳动,楼主辛苦了,恨不得点十个赞。

如果閣下玩英文維基的話,可以幫我把翻譯也轉到Wikiquote去。來源可以雙引用:既引用品蔥我這個帖,也引用阿姨學詞典原文鏈接。這樣可以防止被姨黑因為沒有來源而刪除。

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Liu_Zhongjing
翻译工作是很不容易的,辛苦了
翻译工作是很不容易的,辛苦了

讀劉仲敬總是很有收穫的。當今西方的右派智庫,雖然有更加系統的研究,但是我認為他們在文明季候論這上面,與劉仲敬比還是小學生。西方的洋兄弟可以向劉仲敬學習文明季候論,而中國兄弟可以向西方智庫學習案例學。
不好意思我好像发现一个Bug:

Yoshimoto said, the Orient means that everyone lives in terror and uncertainty.


刘指的吉本应该是Edward Gibbon
不好意思我好像发现一个Bug:刘指的吉本应该是Edward Gibbon

我也沒搞清楚劉老說的是哪個吉本,不過信你說的。已修改。

在任何无神论者和平等主义者占据主流的社会中,法统就是一个笑话。


这句很认同。推荐阅读  《“清教徒精神” 美国梦之真正泉源》 http://www.sinovision.net/portal.php?mod=view&aid=162949

这也是目前品葱最大的问题。对信仰和有神论极不尊重。信仰自由,实际就是思想自由。这一点是所有人权的基础,包括言论自由。

[url=http://www.sinovision.net/portal.php?mod=view&aid=162949][/url]
非常支持,特此回复。
这也是目前品葱最大的问题。对信仰和有神论极不尊重。

我所在的某地下基督教會在互聯網暗網有個論壇,大陸人可以自由進入討論基督教的歷史和教義。由於大陸人從小受到無神論的仇恨教育,對別人的信仰張口就辱罵的情況很常見。不過呢,這個論壇並沒有採取封號或者組織人罵回去的做法,而是保護言論自由,同時心平氣和地講道理。

這個論壇我給西方的洋兄弟看,他們都很佩服,說中國有基督徒比西方人還懂民主與自由。

這個論壇的近年來發展的基督徒當然是越來越多。這些基督徒心平氣和的回复令很多路人佩服,成為他們決心皈依主耶穌的原因。

現在的問題是,大陸人從小到大所受的仇恨教育不是一兩天就能扭轉過來的。品蔥未來怎麼處理最好,還請各位發表意見。
btw 听说刘老翻译的吉本作《罗马帝国兴衰史》在翻译界风平很烂,所以我也有点担心这个“吉本所说”估计也是刘不知道怎么理解的XD
edit:sorry记错了,刘老翻译的是休谟的英国史,不是吉本的那个
但是确信文里刘老的吉本指的是Edward Gibbon
确信找不到确切的原文
我所在的某地下基督教會在互聯網暗網有個論壇,大陸人可以自由進入討論基督教的歷史和教義。由於大陸人從小...

挺简单的,搞一系列入站测试题目,内容是情景反应:
你遇到XXXX事情时,你会怎么做?A 【怪罪他人的做法】 B 【颠倒因果的做法】C【先入为主的做法】D【倾听他人的做法】
这个测试的目的不是把人拦在外面,而是用测试来告诉大家什么行为方式是可接受的。
[quote][/quote]冰冻三尺非一日之寒。我之前多次发表过文影普及。葱友回复不太友好,但都可以讲道理。但基本都被管理员转水了。品葱的问题就在于管理员机制。完善这一点,什么问题都能得到解决。
[quote][/quote] 《宇宙到底有多大?》、美国记录大片《生死与轮回》、《人与宇宙》:让人重新审视已知的短片……经典科学启蒙影视收集贴 https://pincong.rocks/video/694
[quote][/quote]有的葱友张口“科学”闭口“迷信”,可教科书里面的大科学家基本信神。最典型的牛顿是虔诚的基督徒。这不得不说是,莫大的讽刺。也是洗脑教育下最荒谬可笑的悲哀。

科学与信仰、有神论没有丝毫冲突矛盾。大陆的教育不会让你知道这些,以便洗脑。
很多大科学家都是宗教徒或信仰人士。比如牛顿、爱因斯坦、普朗克、安培、欧姆、居里夫人等。这一点你可以查阅他们的自传证实。

为什么这些伟大的科学家都信神 https://www.aboluowang.com/2016/1218/853342.html
93%的诺贝尔奖获科学家 竟然全都相信神 https://www.zhengjian.org/node/232451
六位著名科學家信神的理由 https://www.epochweekly.com/b5/505/17180.htm
很多杰出科学家都信神https://www.minghui.org/mh/articles/2017/7/5/%E5%BE%88%E5%A4%9A%E6%9D%B0%E5%87%BA%E7%A7%91%E5%AD%A6%E5%AE%B6%E9%83%BD%E4%BF%A1%E7%A5%9E-350572.html
劉阿姨值得翻譯,對英語世界最有用的那部分是對中共的分析,阿姨可以去紐約時報寫時評。
譯者有心,在品蔥為難得。疑者從闕,不知何方Gibbon則言Gibbon可也。

「Zhongjing Liu is a Chinese historian and the father of China's Alt-right. He is the guiding theorist behind Greater China's anti-communist movement, which delivered the Hong Kong protests and Taiwan's historic turn to the right in 2020. 」

此段似為過言。劉氏不是 the father, 亦非 the guiding theorist, 臺港亦非 turn to the right. 可說是 a pioneer, a guiding theorist, turn against Communist China. "Which deliver"一從句文法無誤,含義可以(也可以不)理解為劉氏肇之,有嫌貼金劉氏。臺港風雲非劉氏掀起或助長,其關係為 correlated 而非 causal。

哈維爾說,活在真實中。臺港還是左得很,文化左翼趴趴走。
上了品蔥才知道阿姨劉仲敬這個人,個人很不喜歡他這種張口就來胡亂類比的風格,實際上對於稍微有點思考能力的人說服力不高,雖然他宣傳的很多內容是我早就認同,或者說至少不抵觸的東西。這篇講的價值有高低,文明傳統需要維護,我就是非常認同的,實際上就是對relativism的否定。這類的批判在西方哲學界一直都有,翻譯劉仲敬的東西就顯得多此一舉了。另外不客氣的說樓主你的翻譯也有不少問題,文法方面的就不說了,只說我看了前兩段就發現你有幾個地方完全是你自己的解讀而不是作者要表達的意思。第一法統是一個中國特有概念,並不是the rule of law, 更加類似於legitimacy of rule的意思。第二,下一段價值意義上的平等其實是指the equality of values, 不是egalitarianism作為一種意識形態。反文明準確的說應該是antithesis of civilization而不是archenemy of civilization. 另外像喝彩與倒彩,明顯就是cheer and boo而不是applause and overjoy. The Orient means everyone lives in terror and uncertainty這種讓人摸不著頭腦的句子。後面我沒接著看了。本來我是不會把這些東西拿出來批判一番的,因為你自己說“我老英語比漢語水平略好“ 抱歉我覺得這個牛吹的有點大。
讀劉仲敬總是很有收穫的。當今西方的右派智庫,雖然有更加系統的研究,但是我認為他們在文明季候論這上面,...

涉嫌種族歧視的言論在西方會被打壓搞醜抵制三連,社會主義粉絲沒有在西方製造大屠殺僅僅因為他們尚未完全掌握權力。
我所在的某地下基督教會在互聯網暗網有個論壇,大陸人可以自由進入討論基督教的歷史和教義。由於大陸人從小...


你好,弟兄,我聽到這個論壇也有點心動,希望能和更多的大陸基督徒交流信仰和分享他們的故事,如果你介意在論壇上公開的話,可以私信告訴我怎么去這個論壇嗎?
上了品蔥才知道阿姨劉仲敬這個人,個人很不喜歡他這種張口就來胡亂類比的風格,實際上對於稍微有點思考能力...

心中有數,客氣些好,無佛處稱尊也是有才具者。
上了品蔥才知道阿姨劉仲敬這個人,個人很不喜歡他這種張口就來胡亂類比的風格,實際上對於稍微有點思考能力...

我英文水平一般,不明白你为什么觉得翻译刘仲敬是多此一举?
我英文水平一般,不明白你为什么觉得翻译刘仲敬是多此一举?

因為直白的講劉本身只是一個搬運工,最多也就是把西方原有的東西進行了一點再加工面對中文世界進行宣傳,您認為他的東西有必要展示給他搬運的來源嗎?而且我說了,他這些看起來很牛逼的胡亂類比和引經據典在英文世界不會有市場,沒人吃他這一套。再說一遍,我看過的有限的劉的文字絕大部分我是基本認同的,並不是在批判劉。
因為直白的講劉本身只是一個搬運工,最多也就是把西方原有的東西進行了一點再加工面對中文世界進行宣傳,您...

我倒觉得比喻很生动形象,表意准确,有美感。
我倒觉得比喻很生动形象,表意准确,有美感。

你覺得“花朵和野草一定要亲疏有别,参天大树和灌木丛一定要贵贱有别”這種說法很準確嗎?樹和灌木,花和草的貴賤之分是按什麼論證過的客觀標準還是說完全是作者的個人喜好?從這又是怎麼去說明不同的價值體系有高下之分?這種看起來生動實際經不起任何推敲的跳躍式生硬類比根本就不是嚴肅論述觀點的方式。
你覺得“花朵和野草一定要亲疏有别,参天大树和灌木丛一定要贵贱有别”這種說法很準確嗎?樹和灌木,花和草...

不必以辭害意,譬喻自耶教以來為常用。是傳意,非論證,劉氏亦無意嚴論。在下非劉氏徒。
你覺得“花朵和野草一定要亲疏有别,参天大树和灌木丛一定要贵贱有别”這種說法很準確嗎?樹和灌木,花和草...
我个人的理解是,人肯定是亲近花朵多过与野草。人比较可能去保护参天大树,而不是普通灌木林。类比人与人之间的关系,这种亲疏贵贱,是一定的,正常的。她这个类比用在这里,可能确有不恰当的地方,我也不是很懂。

平等主义给我感觉和乌托邦,共产主义初期口号差不多。

人和自然万物差不多,天生就是不平等的。比如中国古代女性比男性较卑下,佛教也有此类论述。但夫妻只要各尽其责,家庭总是和谐的。女性也能证得果位。
辛苦了翻译这么大一段...不过很多地方有Chinglish痕迹,用词错误或不准确表达也不少,字面翻译不可取啊
比如说第一段“法统”翻译为Rule of law不符合原意(是指政权合法性),transplant the traditions of England and Germany表述非常别扭,大夫(官职名)翻译为Doctor更是明显错误。
除此之外还有一大堆,手机不方便有空我整理下😇
我个人的理解是,人肯定是亲近花朵多过与野草。人比较可能去保护参天大树,而不是普通灌木林。类比人与人之...

說到這個問題的話,對我個人來說最合理最有說服力的解釋要從人類進化的角度來看,實際上現代社會在整個人類歷史中只是很短的一瞬間,我們的社會結構,等級觀念,性別分工等等都是很早以前就有的,屬於深入基因的東西,這個從觀察其他跟人類相近的猿類動物就能發現。所謂的傳統,所謂宗教裡面的很多教條,不過是把這些本來就有的東西用一種容易被人接受的方式表達出來而已。我本人是無神論者,其實我相信劉仲敬自己也並不真的信神,我相信他是借宗教和傳統的外衣在嘗試向中國人宣傳一些價值觀,嘗試向一部分人傳播重新建立被中共原子化的社會所需要的種子。這種嘗試是有意義的,但是也只在中文世界有意義。
說到這個問題的話,對我個人來說最合理最有說服力的解釋要從人類進化的角度來看,實際上現代社會在整個人類...
进化论你也相信?
說到這個問題的話,對我個人來說最合理最有說服力的解釋要從人類進化的角度來看,實際上現代社會在整個人類...

你如果读过《圣经》或佛经,会发现此类比喻挺多的。你说的“嚴肅論述觀點”,我感觉有点文理科学生的区别。世界上很多东西不是逻辑和理性可以说清楚的。有的比喻只是浪漫一点,但相比“嚴肅論述觀點”要通俗易懂一些。可能在理性思维主导的人眼里不够严谨。可是个人,挺喜欢这种比喻。让人有想象空间。
你覺得“花朵和野草一定要亲疏有别,参天大树和灌木丛一定要贵贱有别”這種說法很準確嗎?樹和灌木,花和草...

耶稣有个麦子和稗子的比喻。可能也不属于你所说“嚴肅論述觀點”的范围,但可能是耶稣的信徒文化程度不一呀。用身边常见的事物打个比喻,那不管是什么人都能听懂了。
以你举的例子那句比喻,如果说给一个十岁小孩或是老人听,我想是比其他方式更好懂一些。人不一定读过书,但一定亲近过花草树木。这例可能确实不佳,但也易懂。

“意思是这里有一棵大树,从别的灌木丛里面摘几个果子,挂在我这个圣诞树上,多几个花样,好看些。”这例比较好。

我想跟自己弟妹老人讨论这些问题,用这比喻,他们一下就可以理解了。

我只看过刘的这一篇文章,感觉她挺喜欢用大自然和动物、常见事物做比喻。《伊索寓言》就是如此,可也不失为经典,反而是其通俗独到之处。如果按照你“嚴肅論述觀點”的观点,这本书流传于世可能是真正的天方夜谭了。

我跟你想法相反,刘应该是有神论或信仰人士。文风有宗教书籍的美感、通俗易懂 特点。本就不是“科学严肃报道”。
姨惹,妙啊!
耶稣有个麦子和稗子的比喻。可能也不属于你所说“嚴肅論述觀點”的范围,但可能是耶稣的信徒文化程度不一呀...


阿姨的文字的确有美感,但是绝不通俗呵哈哈
阿姨的文字的确有美感,但是绝不通俗呵哈哈

我是以他说的“嚴肅論述觀點”为参照的。有的类比可能确实谈不上准确谨慎。但表意强,跟什么文化程度年龄段的人都说的清楚。
譯者有心,在品蔥為難得。疑者從闕,不知何方Gibbon則言Gibbon可也。

「Zhongjing Liu is a Chinese historian and the father of China's Alt-right. He is the guiding theorist behind Greater China's anti-communist movement, which delivered the Hong Kong protests and Taiwan's historic turn to the right in 2020. 」

此段似為過言。劉氏不是 the father, 亦非 the guiding theorist, 臺港亦非 turn to the right. 可說是 a pioneer, a guiding theorist, turn against Communist China. "Which deliver"一從句文法無誤,含義可以(也可以不)理解為劉氏肇之,有嫌貼金劉氏。臺港風雲非劉氏掀起或助長,其關係為 correlated 而非 causal。

哈維爾說,活在真實中。臺港還是左得很,文化左翼趴趴走。

已重寫:
Zhongjing Liu is a Chinese American historian and a thought leader of China's Alt-right. He is one of the theorists behind Greater China's pendulum swing towards the right, which delivered Hong Kong protests and Tsai Ing-wen's reelection in Taiwan. A Fandom group has collected some of his most iconic quotations. I am translating a few into English, because I think every identitarian and patriot should know that they are not alone in the fight against global communism. Let me know what you think.

這裡面..., which這個非限定性定語從句的指代更明確,希望不再造成讀者困惑。

White_Vinegar:
上了品蔥才知道阿姨劉仲敬這個人,個人很不喜歡他這種張口就來胡亂類比的風格,實際上對於稍微有點思考能力的人說服力不高,雖然他宣傳的很多內容是我早就認同,或者說至少不抵觸的東西。這篇講的價值有高低,文明傳統需要維護,我就是非常認同的,實際上就是對relativism的否定。這類的批判在西方哲學界一直都有,翻譯劉仲敬的東西就顯得多此一舉了。另外不客氣的說樓主你的翻譯也有不少問題,文法方面的就不說了,只說我看了前兩段就發現你有幾個地方完全是你自己的解讀而不是作者要表達的意思。第一法統是一個中國特有概念,並不是the rule of law, 更加類似於legitimacy of rule的意思。第二,下一段價值意義上的平等其實是指the equality of values, 不是egalitarianism作為一種意識形態。反文明準確的說應該是antithesis of civilization而不是archenemy of civilization. 另外像喝彩與倒彩,明顯就是cheer and boo而不是applause and overjoy. The Orient means everyone lives in terror and uncertainty這種讓人摸不著頭腦的句子。後面我沒接著看了。本來我是不會把這些東西拿出來批判一番的,因為你自己說“我老英語比漢語水平略好“ 抱歉我覺得這個牛吹的有點大。

我英語是本科水平,漢語是中學水平。你這樣抬摃,我也冇眼睇。

cheer and boo和antithesis這兩部分我同意你講的,已修正。

在任何无神论者和平等主义者占据主流的社会中,法统就是一个笑话。合法与不法的区别犹如剧院闲人兴之所至的喝彩与倒彩,轻若鸿毛。
In any societies where the atheists and egalitarians have become mainstream, the rule of law becomes a farce. There, the boundaries between the law and violations of it are no longer serious, like the cheers and boos of the idlers in a theatre.


价值意义上的平等是反文明的,
Egalitarianism, in the sense of an ideology, is an antithesis of civilization.


rebecca:
挺简单的,搞一系列入站测试题目,内容是情景反应:
你遇到XXXX事情时,你会怎么做?A 【怪罪他人的做法】 B 【颠倒因果的做法】C【先入为主的做法】D【倾听他人的做法】
这个测试的目的不是把人拦在外面,而是用测试来告诉大家什么行为方式是可接受的。

閣下這個是品蔥精英主義的主流觀點,意思是說品蔥衹允許高質量內容,上來就攻擊他人信仰、引戰的低質素用戶衹看就好,不許發言搗亂。

基督教出於廣被福音、救世安民的目的,一般是不搞精英主義的。精英我們給他傳主線派,庶民我們給他們傳福音派。皆大歡喜。

永不放弃
《宇宙到底有多大?》、美国记录大片《生死与轮回》、《人与宇宙》:让人重新审视已知的短片……经典科学启蒙影视收集贴 https://pincong.rocks/video/694

在古代地中海文化圈,衹有蠢人才信無神論曾經是常識。共產黨顛倒是非,把無神論當作「顯學」推行,造成很壞的後果。您這些內容很好。我之前也提到過《Soul Survivor: The Reincarnation of a World War II Fighter Pilot》這本書。
我英文水平一般,不明白你为什么觉得翻译刘仲敬是多此一举?

我認為White_Vinegar就是進來搗亂的,不用嚴肅對待。即使這樣,我還是感謝任何人提出意見,嚴肅的也要,搗亂的也好;善意的也好,惡意的也好。這樣能幫助我們潤色譯文,最終是希望劉仲敬的思想在西方能夠被更廣泛接納。現在西方右派智庫很缺乏文明季候論的研究者。

周小平愛人
劉阿姨值得翻譯,對英語世界最有用的那部分是對中共的分析,阿姨可以去紐約時報寫時評。

Mrshithole:
涉嫌種族歧視的言論在西方會被打壓搞醜抵制三連,社會主義粉絲沒有在西方製造大屠殺僅僅因為他們尚未完全掌握權力。

是的。因此劉老還是尋求在左棍亂舞的魔境以外活動較好,比如說另類右翼的各種媒體和論壇。

Gandivadhanvan:
你好,弟兄,我聽到這個論壇也有點心動,希望能和更多的大陸基督徒交流信仰和分享他們的故事,如果你介意在論壇上公開的話,可以私信告訴我怎么去這個論壇嗎?

您不妨可以從明網論壇開始。所謂明網,就是搜索引擎可以搜索到的網站。明網有不少很有意思的基督教論壇。
辛苦了翻译这么大一段...不过很多地方有Chinglish痕迹,用词错误或不准确表达也不少,字面翻译不可取啊
比如说第一段“法统”翻译为Rule of law不符合原意(是指政权合法性),transplant the traditions of England and Germany表述非常别扭,大夫(官职名)翻译为Doctor更是明显错误。
除此之外还有一大堆,手机不方便有空我整理下😇

感謝閣下提出意見。我知道閣下反對劉仲敬的觀念,然而能夠直話直說,沒有陰陽怪氣,令我讚許。

大段的翻譯,為了節約成本,我是用機翻以後手動修改的(上面已編輯說明)。因此肯定存在不完美的地方。

趙簡子處決他的兩個「大夫」這件事情,處決的是他的顧問和高級學者。用doctors確實容易引起誤解。既然「士大夫」是scholar-officials,那麼「大夫」改成更現代的英語詞grand scholars了。

我...更想要在日耳曼和英国的传统来移植到中国
I want to transplant the traditions of England and Germany to China

這一部分確實是彆扭的一句話。修改成:

我...更想要在日耳曼和英国的传统来移植到中国
I want to have the British and German traditions transplanted into China.


其他您有意見的翻譯可以全部提出來,我回去修訂。過兩天我有時間,會把這些翻譯再通讀、潤色一遍。
已重寫:這裡面..., which這個非限定性定語從句的指代更明確,希望不再造成讀者困惑。:我英語是...

奉改。Hongkong protests 似宜作 the Hongkong protests. Chinese American 是實, Chinese historian in exile in the USA 似較符其思想來歷。

翻譯不易,譯文仍頗有可議,省工夫,權算傳大意。
奉改。Hongkong protests 似宜作 the Hongkong protests. Ch...

已修改:
Preamble: Zhongjing Liu is a historian and a thought leader of China's Alt-right. He is one of the theorists behind Greater China's pendulum swing towards the right, which delivered the Hong Kong protests and Tsai Ing-wen's reelection in Taiwan. A Fandom group has collected some of his most iconic quotations (source). I am translating a few into English (with the aid of Google Translate), because I think every identitarian and patriot should know that they are not alone in the fight against global communism. Let me know what you think.
已修改:Preamble: Zhongjing Liu is a and a thought le...

閣下能用心,在品蔥難得。
全文已經通讀並且再次潤色。很多粗製濫造的句子和用詞都被我修理了。https://i.imgur.com/NVmcfxg.gif
厉害,佩服。
ZetaFC 观察
我没仔细看(直接跳到文尾,对不起,我有空再好好看),但是最后这一句
多国体系是文明起死回生的最仁慈道路,任何反对者都将不得不面临更加残酷而且无效的选择。

The disintegration of an empire is the most benevolent way to bring a civilization back to life. Anyone who opposes it will have to face more cruel and ineffective choices.


这里的“多国体系”应该翻译为“The system of the nation states"或者“A system composed of nation states"。“nation state”为威斯特伐利亚合约语境下的“主权国家”(直接翻译成“The Westphalian system" 也好)。刘的这句话明显是为了反欧盟和联合国,所以我觉得这样翻译合适。

另外不觉得不要说刘是“alt-right”,说他是“A thought leader of China‘s political dissenters"就比较合适。

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